Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Bob Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:40 pm

Dave-O wrote:
Diego wrote:
After a couple of marathons, it became pretty obvious that the best advice came from fellow V-teamers. That's ok.

I honestly don't think this was okay for Hal.

The best - and by best I mean thorough, reasoned, experienced, and well-rounded - advice came from the commentors. If a newbie popped in and asked, "why should I run my long runs slower than goal pace," here's how the thread likely evolved:

- Hal would say because that's what he tells you to do and that his program has worked for hundreds of thousands of runners, with no further explanation
- Someone else would come in and explain the injury risk associated with hammering long runs
- Someone else would list the physiological benefits to running at a given pace, including fat utilization
- Then, that post would be supported by a HR expert explaining why running in the right "zone" is appropriate
- I'm sure there'd be posts about periodically including a fast-finish long run at goal pace to simulate running on fatigued legs
- There'd also be someone explaining proper recovery in order to hit your paces for subsequent workouts
- Or how keeping paces slower helps one increase volume

- And if the original poster had follow-up questions, it would be the commentors, not Hal that clarified and offered advice tailored to the individual.

Now, how does that make Hal look? Would that thread ever persuade a reader to pay for Hal's programs and daily emails?

And of course the last post would usually be some sarcastic, unhelpful response from me that would then end the thread.

Ken Mello Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:43 pm

There's a lot of energy being spent in here on Hal! I thought we had moved past that, but seems there are still a lot of open wounds. Wink

What I learned about the man is that he thought he was always right, even when it was obvious to everyone that he wasnt. I wont share the content of them here, but when things started going bad over there, he sent me a bunch of private emails trying to convince me that he was right, and his methods were right, while everyone else was wrong. He simply couldnt see how anything he was doing could be alienating people - he just chose to see it as "the natural process of things." (and why he cared so much to try to convince ME, I have no idea....)

So why does it come as a surprise that he continues to be that way? He's a man who is set in his ways, and convinced that he knows better than anyone else. And when that is challenged, he doesnt respond well. I'm sure Martin tried to give him constructive advice about how to help the site, and he took it as criticism, and responded as such. Oh well, you can't help everyone.

I think that in a year, that site will probably be gone. Martin was one of the few people working hard to keep it going and to post to it regularly. With him gone, and Hal not caring or paying attention, it won't last.

littlewally and farnk Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:28 pm

Back in 1999 I signed on to Hals boards from the advice of a casual runner friend of mine. I thought what the heck do I need this for? I was "experienced" with my 7 'Thons under my belt but I logged on.
Over the years many things on Hal's forums have changed. The one thing that hasn't is the fact that WE ARE HERE ON THIS SITE because of him.
Many of the past races I have enjoyed with fellow V-Teamers or Taipers are due to the simple fact that I logged in 13 years ago to read about other runners training for Chicago. DWD, R2R, GMR, Da' Pig, NOLA, Detroit and Milwaukee are some of my most memorable life events.
As many of you know, I hardly , if ever, join in on a controversial thread. Not my style. You bicker. I'll run.
If there is ever a thread I don't like, I click off of it and go somewhere else. Call me chicken, call me weak, I dont care. Hal does his thing, we do our thing. Hal is bad, we are bad. Nobody's perfect. we all have a choice whether to read or move on.

JohnP Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:46 pm

It's about time we had a thread like this! It's been too easy going lately, and no one is insulting Jerry a lot either! I think Hal felt ill at ease having MVW stay with his forums when others bolted last year and really didn't know how to handle it. Whatever any of us feel about Martin, there's just no doubt that he has a lot of knowledge in this area and we need those solid contributions.

ounce Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:05 pm

Hall always gave it to me straight, whether I liked it or not. I still use his Marathon 3 program, even though I've now evolved past the basic postulates. For me, running 3 days a week works.

For the books of his that I've bought, the $100 special access section on the V-Team boards, and the M3 program that I bought, I definitely received great value.

Y'all are setting me straight, as well. For that, I am grateful. Getting faster is a new experience to me and y'all are a great help.

I do feel sorry for the newbies on Hal's boards, now that the depth of information is here.

Admin Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:36 pm

littlewally and farnk wrote:Hal is bad, we are bad. Nobody's perfect. we all have a choice whether to read or move on.

This is a line worth re-reading now and then. Thanks, FW.

JohnP wrote:It's about time we had a thread like this!

I sort of thought so, too.

Ken Mello wrote:There's a lot of energy being spent in here on Hal! I thought we had moved past that, but seems there are still a lot of open wounds.

I gave a lot of time and energy to Hal's site. Some of it worthwhile and productive; some of it just fun; and some of it playing provocateur... it was a big part of my early running life, and I will mourn it's passing for a long time. I love what Hal did for me as a newbie runner, but I am hurt at what he took away from so many. The v-team was so much bigger than Hal...

Schuey Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:46 pm

littlewally and farnk wrote:Back in 1999 I signed on to Hals boards from the advice of a casual runner friend of mine. I thought what the heck do I need this for? I was "experienced" with my 7 'Thons under my belt but I logged on.
Over the years many things on Hal's forums have changed. The one thing that hasn't is the fact that WE ARE HERE ON THIS SITE because of him.
Many of the past races I have enjoyed with fellow V-Teamers or Taipers are due to the simple fact that I logged in 13 years ago to read about other runners training for Chicago. DWD, R2R, GMR, Da' Pig, NOLA, Detroit and Milwaukee are some of my most memorable life events.
As many of you know, I hardly , if ever, join in on a controversial thread. Not my style. You bicker. I'll run.
If there is ever a thread I don't like, I click off of it and go somewhere else. Call me chicken, call me weak, I dont care. Hal does his thing, we do our thing. Hal is bad, we are bad. Nobody's perfect. we all have a choice whether to read or move on.

I tip my hat to you Frank well played! Running

Mrs. Schuey Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:49 pm

Schuey wrote:
littlewally and farnk wrote:Back in 1999 I signed on to Hals boards from the advice of a casual runner friend of mine. I thought what the heck do I need this for? I was "experienced" with my 7 'Thons under my belt but I logged on.
Over the years many things on Hal's forums have changed. The one thing that hasn't is the fact that WE ARE HERE ON THIS SITE because of him.
Many of the past races I have enjoyed with fellow V-Teamers or Taipers are due to the simple fact that I logged in 13 years ago to read about other runners training for Chicago. DWD, R2R, GMR, Da' Pig, NOLA, Detroit and Milwaukee are some of my most memorable life events.
As many of you know, I hardly , if ever, join in on a controversial thread. Not my style. You bicker. I'll run.
If there is ever a thread I don't like, I click off of it and go somewhere else. Call me chicken, call me weak, I dont care. Hal does his thing, we do our thing. Hal is bad, we are bad. Nobody's perfect. we all have a choice whether to read or move on.

I tip my hat to you Frank well played!

Agreed!

Jerry Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:53 pm

Mrs. Schuey wrote:
Schuey wrote:
littlewally and farnk wrote:Back in 1999 I signed on to Hals boards from the advice of a casual runner friend of mine. I thought what the heck do I need this for? I was "experienced" with my 7 'Thons under my belt but I logged on.
Over the years many things on Hal's forums have changed. The one thing that hasn't is the fact that WE ARE HERE ON THIS SITE because of him.
Many of the past races I have enjoyed with fellow V-Teamers or Taipers are due to the simple fact that I logged in 13 years ago to read about other runners training for Chicago. DWD, R2R, GMR, Da' Pig, NOLA, Detroit and Milwaukee are some of my most memorable life events.
As many of you know, I hardly , if ever, join in on a controversial thread. Not my style. You bicker. I'll run.
If there is ever a thread I don't like, I click off of it and go somewhere else. Call me chicken, call me weak, I dont care. Hal does his thing, we do our thing. Hal is bad, we are bad. Nobody's perfect. we all have a choice whether to read or move on.

I tip my hat to you Frank well played!

Agreed!

Not sure who is who. lol!

Bob Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:54 pm

littlewally and farnk wrote:Back in 1999 I signed on to Hals boards from the advice of a casual runner friend of mine. I thought what the heck do I need this for? I was "experienced" with my 7 'Thons under my belt but I logged on.
Over the years many things on Hal's forums have changed. The one thing that hasn't is the fact that WE ARE HERE ON THIS SITE because of him.
Many of the past races I have enjoyed with fellow V-Teamers or Taipers are due to the simple fact that I logged in 13 years ago to read about other runners training for Chicago. DWD, R2R, GMR, Da' Pig, NOLA, Detroit and Milwaukee are some of my most memorable life events.
As many of you know, I hardly , if ever, join in on a controversial thread. Not my style. You bicker. I'll run.
If there is ever a thread I don't like, I click off of it and go somewhere else. Call me chicken, call me weak, I dont care. Hal does his thing, we do our thing. Hal is bad, we are bad. Nobody's perfect. we all have a choice whether to read or move on.

This coming from the guy who got people kicked off the internet for his indecent photos. Very Happy

(Edited to add a smiley face for those who have no idea what I'm talking about)

Admin Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:58 pm

Bob wrote:
littlewally and farnk wrote:Back in 1999 I signed on to Hals boards from the advice of a casual runner friend of mine. I thought what the heck do I need this for? I was "experienced" with my 7 'Thons under my belt but I logged on.
Over the years many things on Hal's forums have changed. The one thing that hasn't is the fact that WE ARE HERE ON THIS SITE because of him.
Many of the past races I have enjoyed with fellow V-Teamers or Taipers are due to the simple fact that I logged in 13 years ago to read about other runners training for Chicago. DWD, R2R, GMR, Da' Pig, NOLA, Detroit and Milwaukee are some of my most memorable life events.
As many of you know, I hardly , if ever, join in on a controversial thread. Not my style. You bicker. I'll run.
If there is ever a thread I don't like, I click off of it and go somewhere else. Call me chicken, call me weak, I dont care. Hal does his thing, we do our thing. Hal is bad, we are bad. Nobody's perfect. we all have a choice whether to read or move on.

This coming from the guy who got people kicked off the internet for his indecent photos.

(Edited to add a smiley face for those who have no idea what I'm talking about)

Post the photo, Bob... you have to post the photo that caused the first BIG issue in V-Team land... and someone should tell the story. It is THE classic event.

mul21 Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:25 pm

Mr MattM wrote: The v-team was so much bigger than Hal...

I think this is the important part that Hal missed that has really been the basis of the anger toward him. He wanted to be the center of attention and tended to throw a hissy fit when he wasn't.

As others have said, there were certainly some very good and important parts to his site and it's unfortunate it couldn't continue as it was.

Ben Z Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:06 am

All I know is if MVW makes his way over to this site we all win.

Nick Morris Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:20 am

All I can say is that I thoroughly enjoy being here more than I ever did over on the "other" site. I learned the real side of Mr. Higdon when I met him at the Chicago Marathon Expo in 2010. He seemed to not care about the regulars that were on the forum, which really turned me off to him. He was more focused on selling me a copy of his book than he was at making me feel like a valued customer/part of his community. To me it is not the best way to run a business, but then again, it is his business and not mine.

As far as this thread, I am always happy to see banter back and forth. But just as FW posted, no one is perfect. Whether it be Hal, myself, or other posters...So always keep that that in the back of your mind as you navigate your way through these forums and life itself.

Michele "1L" Keane Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:44 am

Mr MattM wrote:
Bob wrote:
littlewally and farnk wrote:Back in 1999 I signed on to Hals boards from the advice of a casual runner friend of mine. I thought what the heck do I need this for? I was "experienced" with my 7 'Thons under my belt but I logged on.
Over the years many things on Hal's forums have changed. The one thing that hasn't is the fact that WE ARE HERE ON THIS SITE because of him.
Many of the past races I have enjoyed with fellow V-Teamers or Taipers are due to the simple fact that I logged in 13 years ago to read about other runners training for Chicago. DWD, R2R, GMR, Da' Pig, NOLA, Detroit and Milwaukee are some of my most memorable life events.
As many of you know, I hardly , if ever, join in on a controversial thread. Not my style. You bicker. I'll run.
If there is ever a thread I don't like, I click off of it and go somewhere else. Call me chicken, call me weak, I dont care. Hal does his thing, we do our thing. Hal is bad, we are bad. Nobody's perfect. we all have a choice whether to read or move on.

This coming from the guy who got people kicked off the internet for his indecent photos.

(Edited to add a smiley face for those who have no idea what I'm talking about)

Post the photo, Bob... you have to post the photo that caused the first BIG issue in V-Team land... and someone should tell the story. It is THE classic event.

Tried to find the photo, but I guess I deleted my copy. Farnk is liberally applying body glide to nether regions prior to the Flying Pig. I did say it was raining that day, right??

Nick Morris Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:46 am

Michele "1L" Keane wrote:
Mr MattM wrote:
Bob wrote:
littlewally and farnk wrote:Back in 1999 I signed on to Hals boards from the advice of a casual runner friend of mine. I thought what the heck do I need this for? I was "experienced" with my 7 'Thons under my belt but I logged on.
Over the years many things on Hal's forums have changed. The one thing that hasn't is the fact that WE ARE HERE ON THIS SITE because of him.
Many of the past races I have enjoyed with fellow V-Teamers or Taipers are due to the simple fact that I logged in 13 years ago to read about other runners training for Chicago. DWD, R2R, GMR, Da' Pig, NOLA, Detroit and Milwaukee are some of my most memorable life events.
As many of you know, I hardly , if ever, join in on a controversial thread. Not my style. You bicker. I'll run.
If there is ever a thread I don't like, I click off of it and go somewhere else. Call me chicken, call me weak, I dont care. Hal does his thing, we do our thing. Hal is bad, we are bad. Nobody's perfect. we all have a choice whether to read or move on.

This coming from the guy who got people kicked off the internet for his indecent photos.

(Edited to add a smiley face for those who have no idea what I'm talking about)

Post the photo, Bob... you have to post the photo that caused the first BIG issue in V-Team land... and someone should tell the story. It is THE classic event.

Tried to find the photo, but I guess I deleted my copy. Farnk is liberally applying body glide to nether regions prior to the Flying Pig. I did say it was raining that day, right??

It is a classic story, but I don't want to view the photo Smile

dot520 Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:20 pm

Classic threads.....indecent race photos.....yes, all these and more for our upcoming one year anniversary of the 365 Runners. Perfect. When is that? June something?

We've all been on our best behavior this past year, here on a board that doesn't necessarily require it. I'm not saying we need to lose all civility.....but....playfulness is good.....glad that Jerry is here to take the brunt of most of it, thus far and Mr. Matt is always appreciated for his edgy threads.

By the way, I don't think that Farnk had the power to kick people off the internet, but certainly off of Hal's board.

Onward!

Jerry Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:25 pm

Bobby's porn photo should be always condemned, but Chas' porn joke is well missed.

littlewally and farnk Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:52 pm

dot520 wrote:Classic threads.....indecent race photos.....yes, all these and more for our upcoming one year anniversary of the 365 Runners. Perfect. When is that? June something?

We've all been on our best behavior this past year, here on a board that doesn't necessarily require it. I'm not saying we need to lose all civility.....but....playfulness is good.....glad that Jerry is here to take the brunt of most of it, thus far and Mr. Matt is always appreciated for his edgy threads.

By the way, I don't think that Farnk had the power to kick people off the internet, but certainly off of Hal's board.

Onward!

Dot, It is funny because I had actually missed the whole thing. Picture posted while I was at work (not access to da Net) and when I came home to view the birthday wishes.......it was strange. People were RE POSTING their comments and I could not figure out why. I was a weird day.

I'll try and find the picture. (mostly cause I LOVED that weekend, no matter what time dinner was!)

healdgator Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:36 pm

Damnit, I missed something controversial.

My only comment (b/c a lot of what I would have said has been said already) is this - if you start a message board on the internet and expect to be able to control the behavior of your members (customers/friends), you are a nitwit.

amyjoann Thu May 03, 2012 6:29 pm

wow I guess I missed lots of drama it got a little lenghty and boring to read so I stopped but Martin I really need to know who did "sleep their way to the top" Thats a very funny statement and I didn't get it at all because it didn't fit well. affraid

Dave P Wed May 23, 2012 10:35 pm

As usual, I'm AWOL for a while & when I return I find out that I missed something.

I too agree that this board will only benefit if Martin VW is a part of it.

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