The 3rd time's a charm!

Congrats on your potential monthly high Jim! I agree that our bodies complain sometimes quite loudly when we do these things. The most amazing aspect is the ability of our bodies to adapt to the stress we put them through. And if we hit it correctly, it can do so with minimal breakdowns.

Nick Morris wrote:Great week Jim!!! It takes a lot of dedication to get out there and run, especially a double, when your legs don't want to work.

Yep, wasn't fun, but getting some miles in in the morning made the evening run easier yesterday.

Schuey wrote:Awesome week Jim!! Keep that truck rolling down the road and you are looking at a special day of on Oct 9th!

Things are going well! Hopefully we get a good weather day.

Alex Kubacki wrote:Great job on the 22. Way to push through those last couple of miles. That's where the end of the marathon strength comes from. At least I think it does.

No doubt about it. One of the other big ones is long runs the day after a tempo. Just gets you used to running on tired legs.

Mike MacLellan wrote:Seems to be just how it goes, Jim; we hit weekly/monthly/whatever highs, and we pay for it for a couple days. And hey, my second run last night was slower than yours, so take heart.

Ha! I saw that. Not something I was worried about, just an observation. I'm always a tick slower in the mornings anyway. It usually takes me a couple miles to wake up.

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Last night's 7 miles was uneventful. I'm in Peoria, IL for work and there's a nice little trail system that I've run on before and it recently got repaved so it was nice and smooth. Reminded me of a workout I did last year when I was here. I ran 8 miles with 6 @ tempo last fall and just found my old blog post on it. And sure enough, there was Chris telling me"You can run so much faster in a race than your PR!" as usual. Kind of funny!

I ran, grabbed dinner, then went back to the hotel and took a couple Tylenol PM and got the best night of sleep I've had in a while. 2 days of recovery runs and a good night of sleep and I feel really good today. Also, it's a good thing I double checked my schedule because I thought I had a tempo run scheduled tonight. Wrong. More Dave abuse. 10 miles with 8 x 800 and then a 12 with 8 tempo miles on Thursday with a double recovery day sandwiched in between.

Don't accuse me of abuse. You've told me for years how much easier you handle track intervals compared to tempos. 8 x 800 is a simple workout!

Dave-O wrote:Don't accuse me of abuse. You've told me for years how much easier you handle track intervals compared to tempos. 8 x 800 is a simple workout!

Well, considering I thought I had 10 with 6 tempo tonight and just a 12 miler on Thursday, what I'm actually doing does count as abuse!

mul21 wrote:

Dave-O wrote:Don't accuse me of abuse. You've told me for years how much easier you handle track intervals compared to tempos. 8 x 800 is a simple workout!

Well, considering I thought I had 10 with 6 tempo tonight and just a 12 miler on Thursday, what I'm actually doing does count as abuse!

Yes, but doesn't it feel great after you've nailed the workout?

Glad to read that you are getting some rest this week. I am sure that Dave is gonna have some wicked runs for next week

8x800's scares me a bit more. That is a dam healthy workout. Enjoy the abuse!

Jim Lentz wrote:

Yes, but doesn't it feel great after you've nailed the workout?

I'm starting to forget what that feels like!

Nick Morris wrote:Glad to read that you are getting some rest this week. I am sure that Dave is gonna have some wicked runs for next week

Actually, this week is pretty brutal (8 x 800 last night, 12 w/8 tempo Thursday and 20 Sunday) but next week is pretty light since I'm doing a HM test race next Saturday.

Kenny B. wrote:8x800's scares me a bit more. That is a dam healthy workout. Enjoy the abuse!

And abuse it was. Enjoyable, not so much.

As I told Dave last night, I think he broke my speed work button. His response: "Well, yeah, kinda, that what lots of miles will do to you." I only got through 6 of the 8 planned repeats before I had to give in. I even started taking a standing/walking rest interval before #5 and 6 and still had to bail. Not that I can't run fast right now, but sustaining it is a whole lot harder than I remember it being. The 6 I did were 3:00, 3:02, 3:05, 3:07, 3:04, and 3:04. I was nearly all out on the last one. I did end up doing a 4 mile cool down to get in the scheduled 10 miles, but those repeats just crushed me.

Jim what pace is that for you on the 800's?

Alex Kubacki wrote:Jim what pace is that for you on the 800's?

Well, that kind of depends on how you look at things. If you use my mile PR from July, you would call it about 5K pace. If you use my 5K PR from May, it's probably closer to 3K-2 mile pace. Considering all the other times that are out there based on my mile PR, I'm going to call it 3K pace.

And it was definitely rough after all the non-fast miles I've logged this year.

what was the interval portion at the start how many minutes or meters? I read from on site and from another member vo02max should be around 20min. So in your case 3:04 I guess 7x would be ideal 8 would be a stretch if even needed.

I am a bit slower i did 6x800's at 3:16 with 90 sec recovery. They were very tough as I should have done 2 min recovery just made a mistake. So that is about 20 minutes. I think with 2 min recovery I could have eeked out 1-2 more considering I did 5x1200's at 4:57 with no huge issue.

Kenny B. wrote:what was the interval portion at the start how many minutes or meters? I read from on site and from another member vo02max should be around 20min. So in your case 3:04 I guess 7x would be ideal 8 would be a stretch if even needed.

I am a bit slower i did 6x800's at 3:16 with 90 sec recovery. They were very tough as I should have done 2 min recovery just made a mistake. So that is about 20 minutes. I think with 2 min recovery I could have eeked out 1-2 more considering I did 5x1200's at 4:57 with no huge issue.

I was doing a 400m interval that ranged from 2:30-3:00 until I just took a standing rest before #5 and 6. My high end is just total crap right now because I haven't worked on it much in quite a while. All these miles have completely thrashed my ability to maintain a high turnover for any length of time. That, and I think I'm still feeling the 80 miles last week. At the end of tomorrow's run, I will have logged 124 miles in 11 days, which is soooooo many more than I've ever even thought about before. An 11 mile a day average for over a week and a half is just a ton of running for me.

mul21 wrote:

Kenny B. wrote:what was the interval portion at the start how many minutes or meters? I read from on site and from another member vo02max should be around 20min. So in your case 3:04 I guess 7x would be ideal 8 would be a stretch if even needed.

I am a bit slower i did 6x800's at 3:16 with 90 sec recovery. They were very tough as I should have done 2 min recovery just made a mistake. So that is about 20 minutes. I think with 2 min recovery I could have eeked out 1-2 more considering I did 5x1200's at 4:57 with no huge issue.

I was doing a 400m interval that ranged from 2:30-3:00 until I just took a standing rest before #5 and 6. My high end is just total crap right now because I haven't worked on it much in quite a while. All these miles have completely thrashed my ability to maintain a high turnover for any length of time. That, and I think I'm still feeling the 80 miles last week. At the end of tomorrow's run, I will have logged 124 miles in 11 days, which is soooooo many more than I've ever even thought about before. An 11 mile a day average for over a week and a half is just a ton of running for me.

I think the mileage is getting to you right now but I would not be concerned about nailing these vo2max. You already have the speed to achieve your goal I think endurance is huge part for you. Does dave want you dong 2:30 to 3:00 for intervals. It seems a bit long but then again your body obviously need it and then some. I do 2min on 800's and above typically as long as my HR gets back down to no higher then 154 i feel I can handle it. (This is not recovery hr zone). Usually the first 2 splits it will be in Recovery zone but after no way on 2 min.

I did 120 in 11 days and I have 75 and 80 planned soon. What do you think you will peak at 80? We do similar workouts but you are have Dave on your side. I like how you are listening to your body more and cutting back if need be yet maintaining the mileage. Good job!

Kenny B. wrote:

I did 120 in 11 days and I have 75 and 80 planned soon. What do you think you will peak at 80? We do similar workouts but you are have Dave on your side. I like how you are listening to your body more and cutting back if need be yet maintaining the mileage. Good job!

I'm thinking the 80 last week will be the peak with some sharpening stuff and the half next weekend. I don't know if I could handle much more than another 65-70 at this point without falling apart. I am really feeling the mileage. Tomorrow's tempo run should be interesting. I think you may be handling the mileage a bit better because you've come close to what you're doing right now before. I think my highest ever before this cycle was something like 64 in a week and 235 in a month. I've hit 80 and 300 this month.

mul21 wrote:

Kenny B. wrote:

I did 120 in 11 days and I have 75 and 80 planned soon. What do you think you will peak at 80? We do similar workouts but you are have Dave on your side. I like how you are listening to your body more and cutting back if need be yet maintaining the mileage. Good job!

I'm thinking the 80 last week will be the peak with some sharpening stuff and the half next weekend. I don't know if I could handle much more than another 65-70 at this point without falling apart. I am really feeling the mileage. Tomorrow's tempo run should be interesting. I think you may be handling the mileage a bit better because you've come close to what you're doing right now before. I think my highest ever before this cycle was something like 64 in a week and 235 in a month. I've hit 80 and 300 this month.

Yep running higher mileage will take it's tool on the body. The good thing is that you will either find that 80 will be a good max for you or you body will adapt well to it and you will be able to go higher in the next training cycle. I think that it is a smart thing to know that the 80 miles was a max and that if it is leaving you feeling beat up there is no reason to go higher or even hit 80 again at this point in the training cycle.

As long as you keep the intensity in your training you will be fine, which I know that will be there because Dave believes in keeping that stuff in all the way to the end.

Good luck with the rest of this week and your half next week.

I agree with Schuey. You are doing the smart thing. For me, I could have really increased my mileage this cycle, but instead I opted to increase my intensity and keep the mileage managable for me. Now I did increase my average mileage from last cycle, but not to the point that I am reaching.

So, I'm completely and totally beat to crap at this point. My legs were toast at about the 6 mile mark of my tempo last night, but my HR and general energy level were fine. I battled through the last 2 tempo miles and got the 2 cool down miles in, but man am I beat today. The 20 on the schedule for Sunday just doesn't sound like any fun at all right now. I'm sure I'll feel much better after today's off day and an easy 6 Saturday, but I have no desire to go out and run for nearly 3 hours right now.

The step back next week couldn't come at a better time.

I guess I never realized how high you had pushed your mileage this cycle as compared to previous - you have held together really well with the speed workouts as well. Great job and no wonder you are feeling a little beat up - sounds like you should be! You will be coming down the home stretch soon....

Get through the 20 this weekend and then enjoy the stepback week.

Fortunately, you don't have to think about running 3 hours right now. You can think about whatever you want for the next 36 hours, and THEN you have to think about running 3 hours.

Mike MacLellan wrote:Fortunately, you don't have to think about running 3 hours right now. You can think about whatever you want for the next 36 hours, and THEN you have to think about running 3 hours.

Yeah...go kick back with a beer tonight! Then an easy day tomorrow and you'll totally fresh for the 20!
Seriously though, I hope you're able to finish up the week strong and then have a well deserved step-back week.

You sound like me...I am so happy for the off day today. Your tune will change by tomorrow and you'll be ready to beat down the 20 on Sunday.

Thanks for the pep talk everybody, but after a few emails back and forth with Dave, we've decided against the 20 this weekend. He didn't realize that I'd done 20 or more 3 of the last 4 weekends, so he gave his blessing for a mental and physical break this weekend. Which works well, since my dad is in town to see the munchkin and not having to squeeze in a nearly 3 hour run is helpful.

And I will in fact be kicking back with a beer tonight (maybe more than 1)!

I think the good news is your HR does not suggest over-training vs. I think overreaching. There is a difference. If I recall over-training can take quite sometime to recover from vs. overreaching is just make some adjustment to your upcoming runs. (90% of the time if we are feeling spent it is just overreaching) Over-training can take months or years of beating up the body and take sometimes as long to rebound.

Like you said this cycle for me is not that much more mileage then I am used to. You did jump quite a bit. I think you are going to rebound really quick and see a great week ahead for running.

I can't get over how similar to your posts that I have felt the past week or so, but as you mentioned, it's the peak of training, though I'm not training nearly as much as you are. I think with a break from the 20, that should be a good start to some recovery. And knowing that there are not that many weeks left of peak training will mentally help too.