The 3rd time's a charm!

Dang...another bee!! Glad to hear that this time it was a near miss. Icebaths sure do the trick sometimes. Glad that you recovered well. How many miles do you scheduled for this week??

Nick Morris wrote:Dang...another bee!! Glad to hear that this time it was a near miss. Icebaths sure do the trick sometimes. Glad that you recovered well. How many miles do you scheduled for this week??

66 if all goes as planned.

mul21 wrote:

Nick Morris wrote:Dang...another bee!! Glad to hear that this time it was a near miss. Icebaths sure do the trick sometimes. Glad that you recovered well. How many miles do you scheduled for this week??

66 if all goes as planned.

Nice!!

Another 6 miles of recovery in the books this morning and the heat is fading, at least for this week. Highs shouldn't be much above 85 or so the rest of this week after today, which is going to feel like the AC is on outside! I actually had to put a shirt on at the beginning of my run this morning because temps were in the upper 60s and I'm not used to that right now. At any rate, I got in another nice and easy 6 miles at 8:55 pace and will plan on 4 more recovery miles tonight.

mul21 wrote:Another 6 miles of recovery in the books this morning and the heat is fading, at least for this week. Highs shouldn't be much above 85 or so the rest of this week after today, which is going to feel like the AC is on outside! I actually had to put a shirt on at the beginning of my run this morning because temps were in the upper 60s and I'm not used to that right now. At any rate, I got in another nice and easy 6 miles at 8:55 pace and will plan on 4 more recovery miles tonight.

60's dam lucky bastard. I have been going shirtless for awhile now. No plan to put one back on anytime soon here in NJ.

Nice recovery run you should be set to go Wednesday I assume something hard. LT possibly.

Kenny B. wrote:

Nice recovery run you should be set to go Wednesday I assume something hard. LT possibly.

Yep! One of Dave's long tempo specials is on the schedule. A little backed off from the way he does them, but basically the same concept. 12 miles total with 8 averaging 6:55 pace. Should be a challenging workout!

mul21 wrote:

Kenny B. wrote:

Nice recovery run you should be set to go Wednesday I assume something hard. LT possibly.

Yep! One of Dave's long tempo specials is on the schedule. A little backed off from the way he does them, but basically the same concept. 12 miles total with 8 averaging 6:55 pace. Should be a challenging workout!

I did 5 today I build up to 7 but a bit more into the schedule. How many miles at LT do you peak at and how many weeks before the marathon is your last LT. My last is 6 weeks out peaking at 7 however, the way things are going I might add an extra between now and then and go up to 8 we will see.

A Dave-O tempo special sounds pretty brutal to me! Good running as usual - do you find it tough to slow down for your recovery runs? Unless I stare at a watch and force myself to slow down constantly, it almost seems tougher to run really slow recovery runs - I'm not near as fast as you are, but runs in the upper 8s almost seem torturous...

Kenny B. wrote:

I did 5 today I build up to 7 but a bit more into the schedule. How many miles at LT do you peak at and how many weeks before the marathon is your last LT. My last is 6 weeks out peaking at 7 however, the way things are going I might add an extra between now and then and go up to 8 we will see.

The longest I've gone before now is 10 w/6 @ tempo. This is Dave's new idea to increase efficiency at near MP, so it's a tad slower average pace than a regular tempo, but a little bit longer. If I was going 6, I'd probably average closer to 6:46 or so. That doesn't seem like a lot, but that close to LT, it starts to get pretty tough at the end.

John Kilpatrick wrote:A Dave-O tempo special sounds pretty brutal to me! Good running as usual - do you find it tough to slow down for your recovery runs? Unless I stare at a watch and force myself to slow down constantly, it almost seems tougher to run really slow recovery runs - I'm not near as fast as you are, but runs in the upper 8s almost seem torturous...

Not at all. When my legs are as trashed as they have been the last few weeks, there is no problem whatsoever going that slow. In fact, the first mile of my last couple of recovery runs outside has been at 9:15-20 pace. Plus, when I'm running early in the morning, forward motion of any kind is usually a challenge!

I will say this though, there really is a huge benefit to running slowly and working the crap out of your muscles. I actually find it easier to run hard a day or 2 after a hard workout if I have done recovery runs as opposed to taking time off. That was definitely something I had to get used to when I started running higher mileage. The recovery runs/doubles are almost like a day off anymore since everything else I'm doing is double digits, hard, or both.

mul21 wrote:

Kenny B. wrote:

I did 5 today I build up to 7 but a bit more into the schedule. How many miles at LT do you peak at and how many weeks before the marathon is your last LT. My last is 6 weeks out peaking at 7 however, the way things are going I might add an extra between now and then and go up to 8 we will see.

The longest I've gone before now is 10 w/6 @ tempo. This is Dave's new idea to increase efficiency at near MP, so it's a tad slower average pace than a regular tempo, but a little bit longer. If I was going 6, I'd probably average closer to 6:46 or so. That doesn't seem like a lot, but that close to LT, it starts to get pretty tough at the end.

I'm wondering just how close (how much faster actually) to MP this is for you. It sounds like a workout that I've found to be one of my most valuable. Basically it's a fast continues tempo run, usually about 6 miles, done at close to HMP. In other words, slower than my shorter tempo or interval workout pace, which usually falls between HMP and 10k pace. I'm not sure where my LT pace falls, but I have a feeling this is about right.

Seth Harrison wrote:

I'm wondering just how close (how much faster actually) to MP this is for you. It sounds like a workout that I've found to be one of my most valuable. Basically it's a fast continues tempo run, usually about 6 miles, done at close to HMP. In other words, slower than my shorter tempo or interval workout pace, which usually falls between HMP and 10k pace. I'm not sure where my LT pace falls, but I have a feeling this is about right.

A regular tempo is anywhere from 15-25 seconds faster than MP on average and these longer ones are probably more like 5-15 seconds faster than goal MP. I was progressing down to 6:49 and averaging right around 7:00 at the end of my last cycle with a goal MP of 7:24. This time around, a regular tempo would be 6:46 with a goal MP of 7:00-7:10 and the long tempo will average around 6:55 per Dave's instructions. If you read the beginning of Dave's blog, I think he gave a pretty detailed explanation on his theory behind the long tempo.

Oh, and I have no idea what I could do for a half right now. I'm probably doing a test race 4 weeks before Chicago to see where I'm at. I think averaging around 6:45-6:50 pace for a half would give me a good indication that a 3:05 would be possible 4 weeks later.

mul21 wrote:

Seth Harrison wrote:

I'm wondering just how close (how much faster actually) to MP this is for you. It sounds like a workout that I've found to be one of my most valuable. Basically it's a fast continues tempo run, usually about 6 miles, done at close to HMP. In other words, slower than my shorter tempo or interval workout pace, which usually falls between HMP and 10k pace. I'm not sure where my LT pace falls, but I have a feeling this is about right.

A regular tempo is anywhere from 15-25 seconds faster than MP on average and these longer ones are probably more like 5-15 seconds faster than goal MP. I was progressing down to 6:49 and averaging right around 7:00 at the end of my last cycle with a goal MP of 7:24. This time around, a regular tempo would be 6:46 with a goal MP of 7:00-7:10 and the long tempo will average around 6:55 per Dave's instructions. If you read the beginning of Dave's blog, I think he gave a pretty detailed explanation on his theory behind the long tempo.

Oh, and I have no idea what I could do for a half right now. I'm probably doing a test race 4 weeks before Chicago to see where I'm at. I think averaging around 6:45-6:50 pace for a half would give me a good indication that a 3:05 would be possible 4 weeks later.

My longer tempo runs have been about 10-15 faster than MP, so it looks like you'll be doing the workout that I was referring to. I haven't got back to them yet. They'll come a bit later in the cycle.
What's your plan for long runs at MP? The longer tempo runs and longs runs at MP are my most important workouts in the later stages of the cycle.
I'll take a look at Dave's blog intro.

Seth Harrison wrote:

My longer tempo runs have been about 10-15 faster than MP, so it looks like you'll be doing the workout that I was referring to. I haven't got back to them yet. They'll come a bit later in the cycle.
What's your plan for long runs at MP? The longer tempo runs and longs runs at MP are my most important workouts in the later stages of the cycle.
I'll take a look at Dave's blog intro.

Well, this is pushing it to a new level for me by going 8 miles for the tempo part. No idea what Dave has in store for me on MP long runs. I did one with Schuey a couple weeks ago that was supposed to be 14 w/10 MP that I got in 8 @ MP due to heat and humidity. Last time he had me do a 16 w/12 MP and 18 w/14 MP, but I'm not really sure what the plan will be this time. I should get my next 4 week block this weekend some time.

I think the most valuable thing for me last cycle was the tempo/long run combo on back to back days. I knocked out a bunch of 10-14 mile runs the day after a tempo on relatively tired legs. I think that definitely helped me fare much better than previously in the last 10K of the marathon.

mul21 wrote:

Seth Harrison wrote:

My longer tempo runs have been about 10-15 faster than MP, so it looks like you'll be doing the workout that I was referring to. I haven't got back to them yet. They'll come a bit later in the cycle.
What's your plan for long runs at MP? The longer tempo runs and longs runs at MP are my most important workouts in the later stages of the cycle.
I'll take a look at Dave's blog intro.

Well, this is pushing it to a new level for me by going 8 miles for the tempo part. No idea what Dave has in store for me on MP long runs. I did one with Schuey a couple weeks ago that was supposed to be 14 w/10 MP that I got in 8 @ MP due to heat and humidity. Last time he had me do a 16 w/12 MP and 18 w/14 MP, but I'm not really sure what the plan will be this time. I should get my next 4 week block this weekend some time.

I think the most valuable thing for me last cycle was the tempo/long run combo on back to back days. I knocked out a bunch of 10-14 mile runs the day after a tempo on relatively tired legs. I think that definitely helped me fare much better than previously in the last 10K of the marathon.

I like the idea of the long run after the tempo run. I haven't done anything like that yet.
18 with 14 at MP was my longest MP run during my most successful cycle (my BQ marathon at Philly in 2009). A couple of similar long MP runs, coupled with the longer tempo runs that we've been discussing, served me very well at Philly. I've never finished the last 10k of a marathon in such good shape. My last mile of that race was my fastest. I'll be interested to see what types of long MP runs Dave has in store for you, but so far it looks like much of what he's having you do is in the ballpark of what worked for me. That's good news for me!

I always do tempo or hard day followed by MWLSD been doing that for quite a few cycles now. Actually find the LSD run to be quite easy during the week from 10-15 miles vs Sunday's long monster runs.

My tempo or LT runs start at 3 go to 7 maybe 8 this cycle avg. around 7:03 pace. I have to think my MP is around 7:35 to 7:40 so I am about 25 seconds slower than MP. Now last year I did LT's around same pace my MP ended up being 7:55 come race day but my HR on LT was dramatically higher. I was probably way over trained or maybe I am just way undertrained so far this year (But I think not).

Pace runs - I am doing total of 6 various pace runs during the 14 weeks, (3) on Sunday include in long run from 5, 10 and 12 mp and on sat (3) from 6,7 and 6. Doing this sunday 15 w/ hopefully 10 @MP.

This cycle the addition of the sat pace run followed by long run is new for me. Done it for HM races etc but wanted to include it this cycle to mix it up.

Jim your training is going very well and at this point you are headed for another huge PR IMO. I hope to be following in that path.

Solid run this morning Jim...I am glad that the heat is breaking. That only means that the runs/times are only going to get better!!

I'm taking a lot of notes here, Jim - good stuff. I would think a half marathon at 6:45-6:50 would be very doable for you - probably could go a lot faster if you were just focused on that...

John Kilpatrick wrote:I'm taking a lot of notes here, Jim - good stuff. I would think a half marathon at 6:45-6:50 would be very doable for you - probably could go a lot faster if you were just focused on that...

I have to catch up on Jim's blog, but I after running with him a week ago there is no doubt in my mind that he can do a half at 6:45-6:50 pace.

One thing I know about Jim is that he is a "Gamer" when it is time to race the boy knows how to give it all and then some.

Look forward to running with you again and hanging out!

Looks like the cycle is going strong Jim. You'll be cranking this fall.

Good discussion on the tempos. As Jim and I are both trained by Dave, I've got all the same kinds of runs scheduled for me too. I think that for himself and for his two schmoes, he's working on getting all of us more used to running and therefore more efficient at MP +/- 5%. For me, at least, there's been a move away from a series of 400/800 type workouts and more of GA runs, longer tempos and progression type runs. I have been trying to get the GA runs down to within 15 seconds or so slower than MP at the end and certainly the tempos have been in that 15-25 second faster than MP although I often start them at MP and work down if they are long enough.



For what its worth, I think Jim should target 6:40 pace for the half. A 1:27 would be an ideal finishing time. That would definitely be a full race effort but I'd know he's got 3:05 if he nails that. 6:50 or so is almost "too" doable and a sub 1:30 is a layup for Jim at this point but I think its leaving quite a bit on the table. 10 seconds a mile doesn't sound like much but at the half, its the difference between Jim easing through it (1:29 something) and KILLING IT (1:27). I vote for KILLING IT!

Thanks everybody for the visits and I appreciate the confidence in my racing ability. I think Chris really just likes to see people suffer like he does from going out too fast!

At any rate, assuming I do the half in September, which is pretty likely, it appears that I will most likely PR in the 10K during that race if I go all out. My 10K PR is 6:56 pace, which I should have no problem eclipsing if I'm in as good of shape as we all seem to think I am. Not that it's going to be easy, but it should be doable. 6:40 pace for a HM might be pushing it though considering my 5K PR, albeit on a tough course, is 6:24 pace.

I really think Dave coaching Chris and I works so well because we all have similar strengths and weaknesses. I was always a track guy, Dave was a football player, and Chris was a soccer player. All of those things are more suited to being fast twitch and that's been born out by the fact that we've all struggled to get our marathon times to match up with shorter distance races. I do think the sweet spot for me is the 10 mile to HM distance where you're using some of the speed and some of the endurance, but you're not really too focused on either.

Ha, that is SO true of Dave/Jim/me. Very similar strengths and weaknesses although of course Dave is off at whole different pace level than we are. And I'm with you on thinking my "best" distance is 10M to Half Marathon. Heck, throw 15K in there. 10k and below feels a little too young guy sprinty for me and as soon as I'm running for 2 hours or so, my body seems to shut down on me from sodium and electrolyte depletion. But running for 1:00 to 1:25 or so seems to be my sweet spot where I can use the endurance I've built up and I've still got the speed to run decent pace.

I tend to think a lot of us excel in the 10m 15k distance. I find this to be my best distance it just feel so good running them.

Good discussion in here.

Yes, I do think the three of us are similar runners in that we're probably all naturally much more fast twitched. So I can essentially use myself as a guinea pig to help continuously tweak what I prescribe you two. The training has worked well thus far, now we just need a trifecta of marathon PRs.