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The 3rd time's a charm!

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Paula Sue
Michael Enright
Dave P
jon c
Mark B
Joel H
Chris M
Jim Lentz
healdgator
Michele "1L" Keane
Natalie
Alex Kubacki
Nick Morris
John Kilpatrick
Mike MacLellan
JohnP
ChasMcG
Dave-O
Ken Mello
Matt W
Mrs. Schuey
Schuey
Tom H
Seth Harrison
Jerry
Kenny B.
Neil Ruggiero
mul21
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Post  Kenny B. Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:18 pm

Dave-O wrote:Good discussion in here.

Yes, I do think the three of us are similar runners in that we're probably all naturally much more fast twitched. So I can essentially use myself as a guinea pig to help continuously tweak what I prescribe you two. The training has worked well thus far, now we just need a trifecta of marathon PRs.

Dave if I don't BQ by 2020 I might ask you to coach me in 2021. Very Happy You know you are a runner when you can't wait to get older so you can BQ!
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Post  Nick Morris Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:26 pm

mul21 wrote:Thanks everybody for the visits and I appreciate the confidence in my racing ability. I think Chris really just likes to see people suffer like he does from going out too fast! lol!

At any rate, assuming I do the half in September, which is pretty likely, it appears that I will most likely PR in the 10K during that race if I go all out. My 10K PR is 6:56 pace, which I should have no problem eclipsing if I'm in as good of shape as we all seem to think I am. Not that it's going to be easy, but it should be doable. 6:40 pace for a HM might be pushing it though considering my 5K PR, albeit on a tough course, is 6:24 pace.

I really think Dave coaching Chris and I works so well because we all have similar strengths and weaknesses. I was always a track guy, Dave was a football player, and Chris was a soccer player. All of those things are more suited to being fast twitch and that's been born out by the fact that we've all struggled to get our marathon times to match up with shorter distance races. I do think the sweet spot for me is the 10 mile to HM distance where you're using some of the speed and some of the endurance, but you're not really too focused on either.

I think you should be able to hit a 6:50 HM pace pretty easy. I am running a HM in September (Fox Cities in Appleton, WI), as well, with a goal time in the 1:28s (6:42-6:45 pace). My thought is that if I can run that time, I should have a decent shot at a sub 3:05 in October. So, I see you hitting 6:50 and having a great chance at a sub 3:10.
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Post  mul21 Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:32 pm

Dave-O wrote:Good discussion in here.

Yes, I do think the three of us are similar runners in that we're probably all naturally much more fast twitched. So I can essentially use myself as a guinea pig to help continuously tweak what I prescribe you two. The training has worked well thus far, now we just need a trifecta of marathon PRs.

So, I normally would just wait until tomorrow to post about my workout, but after re-reading this post and the results of tonight's workout, I had to put it up tonight.

The plan was 12 miles with 8 @ 6:55 average pace. Dave likes to start these a little above goal MP and work down below it as the miles tick off. So, I started out at 7:13 after my warmup for mile 1, then progressed down to 7:08, 7:03, 6:58, 6:53, 6:49, 6:44, and 6:40 to get in the 8 miles. I really didn't even feel like I started working until some time in mile 5, which I was slightly surprised by. I had a feeling this morning this run would go well when I woke up and my legs felt totally normal, no soreness, no fatigue, just really kind of fresh. So, after I hit mile 8 of the tempo, since I was still feeling good, I went ahead and cranked it down to 6:35 pace and knocked out another mile, then finished up with a mile cool down.

So, overall I got in 9 tempo miles at an average pace of 6:53.7 and could have easily kept going. Coming off a 70 mile week that included a 20 mile run. A week after my highest mileage month ever. Moral of the story: Dave knows what the hell he's talking about.

And based on the way this workout went, if I stay healthy, I think I'm on my way to my part of the trifecta!
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Post  Nick Morris Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:41 pm

Most definitely Jim!!! That was an excellent run...I think that the way that you are going, you are going to run faster than me this fall!!!
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Post  Schuey Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:41 pm

sweet run Jim, see I told you could go faster and that you were in great shape when we ran together last Saturday. No doubt that the cooler weather tonight help. Well I assuming that you had nice running weather like we had. Very Happy

Again great job on your tempo run, things are falling right in place for you.
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Post  Dave-O Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:35 pm

mul21 wrote:



And based on the way this workout went, if I stay healthy, I think I'm on my way to my part of the trifecta!



No pressure on the other two, or anything.
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Post  mul21 Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:46 pm

Dave-O wrote:
mul21 wrote:

And based on the way this workout went, if I stay healthy, I think I'm on my way to my part of the trifecta!


No pressure on the other two, or anything.

Well, in both of your defenses, I do have the most room to work with. lol!
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Post  Jerry Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:43 pm

6 weeks after I BQ'd at 3:20, I ran 1:28 half. I was holding it to ensure a sub 1:30 New York guarantee entry.

You think you fast twitch, Jim? lol!

Oh, wait, I actually BQ'd 11 months after the half. Very Happy


Last edited by Jerry on Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Dave P Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:59 pm

Trying to catch up on things - looks like it's going well for you right now Jim. Smile
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Post  Mike MacLellan Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:38 pm

Jim, that's a hell of a run. Love it when the prescribed miles are finished and you can tack on another just for the hell of it.
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Post  Kenny B. Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:29 pm

Great run Jim electrifying afro ,
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Post  Jim Lentz Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:29 pm

That was a great run, Jim.
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Post  John Kilpatrick Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:01 pm

Congrats on besting your 10K PR on a 9 mile TEMPO RUN and not even a race!!! Impressive. There must really be something to this running in cool weather stuff. I went back and looked at my records from this spring, and, according to my Garmin watch (I don't know how really accurate those things are), I did a training test run on Jan 22 of this year of 13.1 miles in 1:27:47. I know you are faster than I was then, so I'm pretty sure that you should be able to hit at least 1:27.

Of course, then I got hurt and then turned around and chumped on a marathon, but that is another story Crying or Very sad ....


Great running lately!

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Post  Nick Morris Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:53 pm

Jerry wrote:6 weeks after I BQ'd at 3:20, I ran 1:28 half. I was holding it to ensure a sub 1:30 New York guarantee entry.

You think you fast twitch, Jim? lol!

Oh, wait, I actually BQ'd 11 months after the half. Very Happy



Jim's a track/cross country guy...of course he is fast twitch Smile
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Post  Joel H Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:38 am

Wow, really nice workout Jim! Looks like you are setting yourself up for a very nice fall.
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Post  mul21 Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:17 pm

Nick Morris wrote:Most definitely Jim!!! That was an excellent run...I think that the way that you are going, you are going to run faster than me this fall!!!

Let's not get carried away her, it was just one run!

Schuey wrote:sweet run Jim, see I told you could go faster and that you were in great shape when we ran together last Saturday. No doubt that the cooler weather tonight help. Well I assuming that you had nice running weather like we had. Very Happy

Again great job on your tempo run, things are falling right in place for you.

This was on a mill, but it was still so much better than others I've
done recently. Not sure if it was the 2 days of recovery before it or
what, but I was just on.

Dave P wrote:Trying to catch up on things - looks like it's going well for you right now Jim. Smile

Thanks Dave!

Mike MacLellan wrote:Jim, that's a hell of a run. Love it when the prescribed miles are finished and you can tack on another just for the hell of it.

Absolutely! And I would have tacked on one more but I was running out of time and had to get back home. It was crazy how good I felt.

Kenny B. wrote:Great run Jim electrifying afro ,

Jim Lentz wrote:That was a great run, Jim.

Thanks guys!

John Kilpatrick wrote:Congrats on besting your 10K PR on a 9 mile TEMPO RUN and not even a race!!! Impressive. There must really be something to this running in cool weather stuff. I went back and looked at my records from this spring, and, according to my Garmin watch (I don't know how really accurate those things are), I did a training test run on Jan 22 of this year of 13.1 miles in 1:27:47. I know you are faster than I was then, so I'm pretty sure that you should be able to hit at least 1:27.

Of course, then I got hurt and then turned around and chumped on a marathon, but that is another story Crying or Very sad ....


Great running lately!

Well, that right there should tell you all you need to know about where your emphasis in marathon training should be. You've got plenty of speed and just need to develop some more stamina.

Joel H wrote:Wow, really nice workout Jim! Looks like you are setting yourself up for a very nice fall.

Thanks Joel! I think I'm in store for a solid race if things continue to go the way they have been.
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Post  mul21 Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:25 pm

Two runs in the books since the tempo run the other night. Due to my long run last weekend getting bumped to Sunday, the week got rearranged a bit. The tempo was supposed to be Tuesday, double Wednesday, and 14 last night. Due to the tempo being Wednesday and another 20 this weekend, Dave didn't want me killing myself to try to get in the 14, so we trimmed it to 12 miles between last night and today and adding 2 miles to the recovery run this weekend.

I decided to do 8 last night to get it out of the way since I have plans tonight and was just kind of expecting something in the 8:15-8:20 region and just trying not to work too hard. Well, the first mile was at 8:20 and then I just hit a groove and ended up averaging 7:59 pace for the run. Not sure if it's the weather or what, but I have felt absolutely fantastic this week. Hopefully it carries over into my 20 on Saturday.

I also got up early this morning and got in an easy 4 miles at right around 9:00 pace. I'm not entirely sure because instead of hitting the lap button at 1 mile (I was in a hurry and didn't wait for the GPS signal) I hit the stop button and it took me a minute or so to realize it. Not a big deal, close enough since it was a recovery run.

So, 20 tomorrow morning and 6 on Sunday to finish up the week and then a nice, relaxing step back week!
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Post  Kenny B. Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:34 pm

Ain't that nice to feel fantastic coming more off a high mileage week! Things are working out very nice for you!
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Post  Chris M Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:01 pm

Good luck on the 20. Zone out mentally for the the first 10 or so. Its to daunting to be too engaged at say mile 3 and thinking you have 17 to go. "just run" thinking about anything but running for an hour+ and then wake up and see where you are.
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Post  Seth Harrison Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:40 pm

One heck of a week so far Jim. I hope tomorrow's 20 goes as well as the rest of your runs have gone.
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Post  Michael Enright Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:32 pm

Enjoy the 20, and have a great stepback.



To the point Chris made, I find I tend to be ok until about a quarter or a third of the way through the run, and then I second-guess myself all the way up until the halfway point. Then I figure I'm good to go, and it'll all be downhill from there.



Hopefully, you will not let such thoughts bedevil you!
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Post  Nick Morris Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:57 pm

Don't you love when you can just put it in cruise control and just run...Good work this week and good luck with the 20 tomorrow. That step back week is well deserved!!Cool
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Post  JohnP Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:40 pm

Looks like a little cooler weather is helping you too. Really impressive run on Tuesday, you are getting into good shape a few months before the marathon, you are definitely on the right track.
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Post  Chris M Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:42 pm

Michael Enright wrote:Enjoy the 20, and have a great stepback.



To the point Chris made, I find I tend to be ok until about a quarter or a third of the way through the run, and then I second-guess myself all the way up until the halfway point. Then I figure I'm good to go, and it'll all be downhill from there.



Hopefully, you will not let such thoughts bedevil you!

Same here. There's something huge mentally about "over half way done". There have been some notable late run bonks for long runs for me but my more norm is struggling mentally in that 1st third while it seems like there's just so far to go. I do best at those times when I fully dissociate from running and tune out completely.
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Post  mul21 Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:16 pm

Kenny B. wrote:Ain't that nice to feel fantastic coming more off a high mileage week! Things are working out very nice for you!

I was very surprised at how good my legs felt on Thursday night. I was a little slow to get going Friday morning, but that's pretty much the norm on morning runs for me.

Chris M wrote:Good luck on the 20. Zone out mentally for the the first 10 or so. Its to daunting to be too engaged at say mile 3 and thinking you have 17 to go. "just run" thinking about anything but running for an hour+ and then wake up and see where you are.

I stole a page from Dave's book for the 20. It was weird. I'll explain in a bit.

Seth Harrison wrote:One heck of a week so far Jim. I hope tomorrow's 20 goes as well as the rest of your runs have gone.

Thanks Seth. Interesting 20 for me today.

Michael Enright wrote:Enjoy the 20, and have a great stepback.



To the point Chris made, I find I tend to be ok until about a quarter or a third of the way through the run, and then I second-guess myself all the way up until the halfway point. Then I figure I'm good to go, and it'll all be downhill from there.



Hopefully, you will not let such thoughts bedevil you!

Oh, those thoughts always bedevil me. No matter how many 20s I've done, it's still just a daunting number to me.

Nick Morris wrote:Don't you love when you can just put it in cruise control and just run...Good work this week and good luck with the 20 tomorrow. That step back week is well deserved!!Cool

Thanks Nick. Hope yours goes well tomorrow after the longish run today.

JohnP wrote:Looks like a little cooler weather is helping you too. Really impressive run on Tuesday, you are getting into good shape a few months before the marathon, you are definitely on the right track.

Without a doubt! I did do the tempo run on a mill just to have the speed a little bit more regulated and to help keep myself under control, but it's been really great running outside all week. After just finishing my 20, the legs are officially trashed though!
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