Pace strategy for Marathon

Every run has its purpose, and we have to stay true to that purpose to get the desired results.

If you're following Pfitz 55 but not following the paces intended for each type of run, you're basically trying to prepare a meal with the right quantities but different ingredients.

Your long runs should be 60 - 90 seconds slower than marathon pace. General aerobic runs 30 to 45 seconds slower than MP. Pace runs at MP, maybe +/- a few seconds, "tempo" runs (fast continuous runs) 30 - 45 seconds faster.

If you find yourself at the low (faster) end of all of these paces on a consistent basis, then you should raise your sights a bit. If you find yourself consistently in the middle of the range, then you've got the right goal. If you're struggling to hit your paces, reconsider your goal.

And you have time to do this fine-tuning before your race.

Good luck!

Martin VW wrote: Your long runs should be 60 - 90 seconds slower than marathon pace. General aerobic runs 30 to 45 seconds slower than MP. Pace runs at MP, maybe +/- a few seconds, "tempo" runs (fast continuous runs) 30 - 45 seconds faster.

This might be splitting hairs but I would say that Long Runs could be 30 seconds slower on the fast end and would agree on the 90 seconds on the slower side of MP. And for GA runs I would say that they could be 30 to 60 seconds slower than MP. For Tempo's I would say 20-40 seconds faster with the slower end of the pace being HMP and the faster end falling between 10k to 15k pace.Like I said it really is splitting hairs but found that this type of pacing for these runs can work very well also. Just my 2 cents

Schuey wrote:

Martin VW wrote: Your long runs should be 60 - 90 seconds slower than marathon pace. General aerobic runs 30 to 45 seconds slower than MP. Pace runs at MP, maybe +/- a few seconds, "tempo" runs (fast continuous runs) 30 - 45 seconds faster.

This might be splitting hairs but I would say that Long Runs could be 30 seconds slower on the fast end and would agree on the 90 seconds on the slower side of MP. And for GA runs I would say that they could be 30 to 60 seconds slower than MP. For Tempo's I would say 20-40 seconds faster with the slower end of the pace being HMP and the faster end falling between 10k to 15k pace.Like I said it really is splitting hairs but found that this type of pacing for these runs can work very well also. Just my 2 cents

I hear what you're saying, Martin, but how many of your long runs are you doing at an 8:30 pace? Seems like every run you do is at a 7:00 pace.

For the 4:00 marathoner, MP - 120 (11:00 miles) isn't going to get your HR up above 70% unless it's hot/humid (in which case you should adapt your pace to the conditions and slow down). I personally would suggest a 4 hour marathoner shoot for MP - 60 (10:00), and would say MP - 90 (10:30) is absolutely fine, but is going to feel pretty slow. MP - 120 seconds is going to feel REALLY slow and is more approriate for recovery miles.

Definitely fine to run an occasional GA run at MP - 60 if you're feeling crappy that day, but then that bumps directly up to long run pace. When I say "every run has its purpose" I mean that you want about a 5% greater effort in terms of HR on the low end of GA runs (so, 75% to 80%) versus long runs (70% to 80%). A GA run should be consistently harder, especially in the early miles, than a long run.

Martin VW wrote:Every run has its purpose, and we have to stay true to that purpose to get the desired results.

If you're following Pfitz 55 but not following the paces intended for each type of run, you're basically trying to prepare a meal with the right quantities but different ingredients.

Your long runs should be 60 - 90 seconds slower than marathon pace. General aerobic runs 30 to 45 seconds slower than MP. Pace runs at MP, maybe +/- a few seconds, "tempo" runs (fast continuous runs) 30 - 45 seconds faster.

If you find yourself at the low (faster) end of all of these paces on a consistent basis, then you should raise your sights a bit. If you find yourself consistently in the middle of the range, then you've got the right goal. If you're struggling to hit your paces, reconsider your goal.

And you have time to do this fine-tuning before your race.

Good luck!

My problem is that my mile pace is pretty much a guess unless I know when I'm at a new mile. I have to go by feel unless I map out a route and then figure out where each mile starts. I'm not trying to be difficult and I am trying to follow the plan but it is somewhat difficult running with a group and running with slower friends some days and faster friends others.

OK, so to make sure I understand all of this, If my goal is 4:00 marathon, that is a 9:09 pace and my GA runs would be 9:39-9:54, long runs 10:09-10:39 but possibly as fast as 9:39, and tempo runs around 8:24.

What if it says Lactate Threshold and I haven't run a 15K or 1/2 marathon lately, should I just use the McMillan Calculator to determine what a half marathon pace would be if my marathon were 4:00?

I'm really not trying to make this more complicated than it is, I'm just trying to train smart for my marathon. Thank you very much for the advice and help!

Julie wrote:

Martin VW wrote:Every run has its purpose, and we have to stay true to that purpose to get the desired results.

If you're following Pfitz 55 but not following the paces intended for each type of run, you're basically trying to prepare a meal with the right quantities but different ingredients.

Your long runs should be 60 - 90 seconds slower than marathon pace. General aerobic runs 30 to 45 seconds slower than MP. Pace runs at MP, maybe +/- a few seconds, "tempo" runs (fast continuous runs) 30 - 45 seconds faster.

If you find yourself at the low (faster) end of all of these paces on a consistent basis, then you should raise your sights a bit. If you find yourself consistently in the middle of the range, then you've got the right goal. If you're struggling to hit your paces, reconsider your goal.

And you have time to do this fine-tuning before your race.

Good luck!

My problem is that my mile pace is pretty much a guess unless I know when I'm at a new mile. I have to go by feel unless I map out a route and then figure out where each mile starts. I'm not trying to be difficult and I am trying to follow the plan but it is somewhat difficult running with a group and running with slower friends some days and faster friends others.

I hear you, Julie, but I'll als say that to train effectively, you have to run at the right paces, even if it means running solo. I love running with others, but if it means short circuiting my training objective, I'll either run on my own, or do a part of my run with others, then finish on my own and meet for coffee.

Martin VW wrote:

Schuey wrote:

Martin VW wrote: Your long runs should be 60 - 90 seconds slower than marathon pace. General aerobic runs 30 to 45 seconds slower than MP. Pace runs at MP, maybe +/- a few seconds, "tempo" runs (fast continuous runs) 30 - 45 seconds faster.

This might be splitting hairs but I would say that Long Runs could be 30 seconds slower on the fast end and would agree on the 90 seconds on the slower side of MP. And for GA runs I would say that they could be 30 to 60 seconds slower than MP. For Tempo's I would say 20-40 seconds faster with the slower end of the pace being HMP and the faster end falling between 10k to 15k pace.Like I said it really is splitting hairs but found that this type of pacing for these runs can work very well also. Just my 2 cents

I hear what you're saying, Martin, but how many of your long runs are you doing at an 8:30 pace? Seems like every run you do is at a 7:00 pace.

For the 4:00 marathoner, MP - 120 (11:00 miles) isn't going to get your HR up above 70% unless it's hot/humid (in which case you should adapt your pace to the conditions and slow down). I personally would suggest a 4 hour marathoner shoot for MP - 60 (10:00), and would say MP - 90 (10:30) is absolutely fine, but is going to feel pretty slow. MP - 120 seconds is going to feel REALLY slow and is more approriate for recovery miles.

Definitely fine to run an occasional GA run at MP - 60 if you're feeling crappy that day, but then that bumps directly up to long run pace. When I say "every run has its purpose" I mean that you want about a 5% greater effort in terms of HR on the low end of GA runs (so, 75% to 80%) versus long runs (70% to 80%). A GA run should be consistently harder, especially in the early miles, than a long run.

I think something got lost in the translation on the long run I won't say to do a long run 120 slower then MP. I was saying for the pace range to be 30-90 seconds. So I was bumping it down 30 seconds from your 60 seconds on the fast end.

As for the G.A. runs now that I cleared up the pace range for the Long Run. I think that my the numbers of 30-60 would work into your math no?

And yes a G.A. runs should be harder in especially in the early miles then a long run.

Not every run is a 7:00 pace, actually today I ran 13 miles of my 13.5 miles with Lisa to average 9:07 today. but yes I generally fall about 30-60 slower then my MP on my long runs.

Oh wait a minute maybe there were 2 miles and some change that wasn't run with Lisa, Vivian and her husband Brian this morning. I had a very bad code B this morning, so I had to play catch-up.

Julie wrote:My problem is that my mile pace is pretty much a guess unless I know when I'm at a new mile. I have to go by feel unless I map out a route and then figure out where each mile starts. I'm not trying to be difficult and I am trying to follow the plan but it is somewhat difficult running with a group and running with slower friends some days and faster friends others.

I think that this is great that you run by FEEl! I think there is a lot to be said for doing this. To be honest I pretty much run all my long runs by feel. I normally don't pay much attention to my watch. The only thing that I will check for is to make sure I'm not going to fast.

Julie wrote:OK, so to make sure I understand all of this, If my goal is 4:00 marathon, that is a 9:09 pace and my GA runs would be 9:39-9:54, long runs 10:09-10:39 but possibly as fast as 9:39, and tempo runs around 8:24.

What if it says Lactate Threshold and I haven't run a 15K or 1/2 marathon lately, should I just use the McMillan Calculator to determine what a half marathon pace would be if my marathon were 4:00?

I'm really not trying to make this more complicated than it is, I'm just trying to train smart for my marathon. Thank you very much for the advice and help!

Your not being complicated it all takes a little getting use to. Plus I think it is nice to have a pace range so you can fall anywhere in that pace range depending on how you are feeling that day.

Your numbers look good to me Julie. As for the Tempo/LT workouts I would the paces for the 4 hour marathon would be 8:24(this is between 10k & 15k) to 8:42(HMP). Now since Pfitz says 15k to HMP the paces would be 8:30(15k)-8:42(HMP).

Hope this helps.

Schuey wrote:

Julie wrote:OK, so to make sure I understand all of this, If my goal is 4:00 marathon, that is a 9:09 pace and my GA runs would be 9:39-9:54, long runs 10:09-10:39 but possibly as fast as 9:39, and tempo runs around 8:24.

What if it says Lactate Threshold and I haven't run a 15K or 1/2 marathon lately, should I just use the McMillan Calculator to determine what a half marathon pace would be if my marathon were 4:00?

I'm really not trying to make this more complicated than it is, I'm just trying to train smart for my marathon. Thank you very much for the advice and help!

Your not being complicated it all takes a little getting use to. Plus I think it is nice to have a pace range so you can fall anywhere in that pace range depending on how you are feeling that day.

Your numbers look good to me Julie. As for the Tempo/LT workouts I would the paces for the 4 hour marathon would be 8:24(this is between 10k & 15k) to 8:42(HMP). Now since Pfitz says 15k to HMP the paces would be 8:30(15k)-8:42(HMP).

Hope this helps.

Thank you, yes you've been quite helpful!

I've always been a run-by-feel kind of runner and to be honest, I don't really want to own a Garmin. I like listening to my body and some of my running friends practically give themselves carpal tunnel checking their watches/GPS systems every 3 seconds and that seems like overkill. And being yelled at during a run because "you're going 8:30 pace!" when it felt fine seems a little unnecessary, too. I know there's a place for them and I am going to map out some of my most common routes and at least hit the split button on my watch to know what I'm doing.

Thanks again, both of you, for helping me!

I always think you shoot for a PR. Since you say you're a run by feel type of runner, the time will take care of itself if you focus on PR pace for the first 15 miles and then go by feel the rest of the way.