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Marathon pace = bad

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Marathon pace = bad Empty Marathon pace = bad

Post  John Kilpatrick Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:42 pm

Well, not really - just sort of weird.

I have a hard time running MP and wondered if other marathoners have found the same thing. The stride is between running comfortably hard and comfortably slow and I have to adjust my speed a lot when running it.

Does anyone else find MP to be a weird sort of running speed/stride length? I haven't done much training geared specifically at MP, so maybe it will get more natural over time?

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Post  Mike MacLellan Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:25 pm

Yes. It's not a very physiologically beneficial pace to run, either. Too fast for basic endurance, too slow for LT. I believe MattM doesn't even train at MP other than one or two times.

Personally, I find MP runs to be extremely taxing at the beginning of a cycle and extremely comfortable by the end. That's usually because I'm coming from nothing-but-base at the beginning and have done a number of LT workouts in the few weeks before the race, so the MP miles feel significantly easier by then.
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Post  Julie Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:45 pm

Yeah I found it kind of hard to get in a good rhythm but I think that's one reason to train at your goal marathon pace, so you train your body to get used to running it.
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Post  Randy E Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:09 pm

Just make sure to avoid the, "Black Hole."
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Post  Ben Z Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:24 pm

Perhaps you are not running long enough at 'goal' MP?

I've found the 6-10 mile MP runs midweek and 10-13 MP weekend runs to be VERY beneficial, both mentally and physically. So much so that I usually can't even handle more than a few 10-13 MP runs in a typical cycle.
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Post  Diego Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:12 pm

Running marathon pace is very difficult, especially when you are still improving. Once you run higher mileage I think it gets easier. For me, however, running HMP(4-6 miles) at the end of my long runs is a better fitness indicator and confidence builder.

When I tried Pfitz, I couldn't do any of those MP workouts(15/12 and 18/15). They were too hard and took too much out of me for much of the next week. Once the marathon arrived, I did just fine.

I think the only time you really need to focus on MP is in the last 3-4 weeks when you are peaking and tapering. That distance does not need to exceed 6-8 miles and can give a better idea what that pace feels like.
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Post  T Miller Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:32 am

I don't feel like marathon pace is bad. In the beginning of the training cycle I think is about everything I can do to run a short 3 - 5 mile MP run. By the end of the cycle, it feels like about the maximum pace that I can hold for 14 miles. I guess throughout the training cycle I feel as though I could keep going for a couple more miles on the MP runs but I just don't want to. Perhaps your MP pace is too slow if it feels like an awkward pace. Set your sights high in training and back off if you need to when the race rolls around. You have a coach now so I'm sure you guys will dial it in.
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Post  Admin Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:02 pm

Mike MacLellan wrote:Yes. It's not a very physiologically beneficial pace to run, either. Too fast for basic endurance, too slow for LT.

This ^^^

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Post  Schuey Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:14 pm

Mr MattM wrote:
Mike MacLellan wrote:Yes. It's not a very physiologically beneficial pace to run, either. Too fast for basic endurance, too slow for LT.

This ^^^

Yep I would have to agree with what Mike has said also. There is no doubt the hardest run for me to perform during a training cycle is the MP run. To be honest these days I hardly do any really short or long MP runs. I will do some miles at MP but most of the time it is tossed into a Fartlek or Interval Tempo run.

You may ask how do I do MP in a interval Tempo run? Well I will do the Interval parts at Tempo and then the recover parts I will do at MP.

As for doing a 10-12 mile MP run. Nope doesn't happen for me, never has and never will. The only day that I do that many miles at MP is on race day!
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Post  John Kilpatrick Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:50 pm

Interesting.... I will be doing a little MP work as part of a Hudson-influenced plan. I have no real basis for arguing for MP as part of training except that, for me anyway, I believe it will give me a confidence to at least settle at a desired pace for as long as I can without constantly shifting faster/slower... Then again, maybe I shouldn't worry about all of that until I get closer to it....
Thanks for the comments!

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Post  Mike MacLellan Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:06 pm

I'm going to play Devil's advocate with myself. I like doing MP runs for comfort and confidence. For example, I built up to 2x 5mi @ MP w/ 1mi "rest" (easy) in the middle of a 15 miler. And I did a 20 w/ the last 10 @ MP. Those were tremendously helpful in teaching my body that pace and giving me a mental edge on race day.
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Post  mul21 Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:27 pm

John Kilpatrick wrote:Interesting.... I will be doing a little MP work as part of a Hudson-influenced plan. I have no real basis for arguing for MP as part of training except that, for me anyway, I believe it will give me a confidence to at least settle at a desired pace for as long as I can without constantly shifting faster/slower... Then again, maybe I shouldn't worry about all of that until I get closer to it....
Thanks for the comments!

With all the tempos you'll be doing, MP will feel pretty easy by the time you get to race day. It'll just be a matter of hanging on for all 26!
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Post  ounce Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:53 pm

Mike MacLellan wrote:I'm going to play Devil's advocate with myself. I like doing MP runs for comfort and confidence. For example, I built up to 2x 5mi @ MP w/ 1mi "rest" (easy) in the middle of a 15 miler. And I did a 20 w/ the last 10 @ MP. Those were tremendously helpful in teaching my body that pace and giving me a mental edge on race day.

I'm doing a variant of this on my long runs as a 'what if...' plan. I run the last half faster so I know I can do it and so my body is not surprised when I push the pedal a little more. Guess I'll find out in a couple of months if it was a good change.
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Post  Kenny B. Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:05 pm

Not sure I know the benefits of running MP other than confidence builder. I have run 10-14@MP during a 12-20 mile run I have also done last 3-5 miles of a long run @ mp or just a 5-8MP miles.

I tend to like long MP runs the best vs. progression and tend to make them in the middle to end of peak weeks!
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