Road to Nowhere

Necessity-is-the-mother-of-all-invention Run: 9.4 miles

Weather: Rainy, cool, tailwind. 48 degrees. Gear: Testers, shorts, rain pants, long-sleeved T, jacket, hat. Fuel: Post breakfast. Carried water, took a Gu (needlessly) at about Mile 7.

I had to take one of our cars to the shop today, which left me stranded in downtown Vancouver without transportation. So what better excuse to drop the car off and see how long it takes to run home?

I could have picked better weather for it. It was raining and breezy, but at least the wind was at my back most of the way. It was a hilly route, so I let my HR rise up a little to avoid walking on some of the uphills, but I did end up walking up hills later in the run after I started to fatigue a little. I tried seeing if a Gu would help, and it didn't.

All in all, it was a pretty pleasant run. I got to run in a part of town that I've never explored on foot, and it had a couple of decent hills, which kept it challenging.

Here's the map and elevation profile:



Yes, that downhill from 6.5 to 6 is pretty steep. You lose about 200 feet in .55 miles. I couldn't help but fly down it. I even went sub-8 for a while.

Walked first and last 5 minutes. Average HR for entire run: 137

Walk: 3.9 miles

Weather: Mostly sunny, cool. 49 degrees.

A nice sunny - and dry - day today, so I ate my lunch quickly and headed out to enjoy the weather and blow off some life stress (that car repair included a new water pump, timing belt and serpentine belt - cha-ching!).

I went down to the Columbia River and walked to where our waterfront trail dead-ends at the old Kaiser Shipyards, where they cranked out Liberty ships and "baby flattops" during World War II. I also got to watch the air traffic out of PDX, including a couple of F-15s from the Air National Guard base there. Neat, though noisy.

It was a nice day, and I pushed it up a little faster than my normal easy walking pace. Gotta get that power hiking base laid in, too, right?

JohnP wrote:Mark, I'm getting a little concerned as I look at my HR data over this year. What is the best book you'd recommend on heart rate training? Thanks.

Blog hijack alert!

John, I honestly wouldn't be terribly concerned about the HR stuff. I think some down time and easing back into things will do you a world of good. My HR was abnormally high until midway through this last training cycle after overtraining last fall. Go easy, be patient and I really think things will fall back into place for you. And by easy, I mean just maintenance running and enjoy yourself with no pressure of races, tempos, or intervals. And if you don't feel like running, take the day off (but not too terribly often! )

mul21 wrote:

JohnP wrote:Mark, I'm getting a little concerned as I look at my HR data over this year. What is the best book you'd recommend on heart rate training? Thanks.

Blog hijack alert!

John, I honestly wouldn't be terribly concerned about the HR stuff. I think some down time and easing back into things will do you a world of good. My HR was abnormally high until midway through this last training cycle after overtraining last fall. Go easy, be patient and I really think things will fall back into place for you. And by easy, I mean just maintenance running and enjoy yourself with no pressure of races, tempos, or intervals. And if you don't feel like running, take the day off (but not too terribly often! )

That said (and it was said very well, Jim, so hijack away), a low HR approach can help curb tendencies to push too hard, too soon. Your body will tell you when you're getting overtrained - but you have to be able to hear it. A HR monitor can help, as can tracking your resting HR in the morning. And, if you've done them before, a MAF test. When I blundered off the overtraining cliff a couple of years ago, it showed up very clearly in the HR numbers.

Thanks Jim and Mark. I did order the first book as soon as Mark posted here. Over the years, I've been in numerous situations where I trained hard and occasionally needed to step back a bit (a few days, maybe a recovery week). I always based this on how I felt soreness-wise and feeling I was on the brink of injury. While I use a HRM, I only use it to check I'm in the right zone for pace, tempo, interval runs.

I'm really at a loss with my HR the past few months. Runs that used to have a HR about 125 now are 140. I did a 5 mile run on a treadmill last week and my HR was 148. Months ago it was 120. After a lot of research (of course on the internet), the two things I saw as causes were overtraining and iron accumulation in the heart. Though I do take iron supplements, my iron level is pretty low so I figure that's not it.

This started a year ago when I started training for my first Boston. I trained relentlessly. When Boston was hot weather, I trained for 3 months more, then started a program for Philly. I just never took it easy. So going on that assumption, I am trying to really take it easy with a couple runs a week. I do see the wisdom of a repeatable test/run to see if the HR is steady, rising or lowering. I know I won't go overboard with this as I'm too impatient. But this is the most serious issue I can recall facing since starting running.

Reading about your experience, John, I can see why you suspect overtraining. I do, too.

The thing you need to remember is that there's a difference between an overuse injury and systemic overtraining. They both can have the root in pushing too much for too long, but while an overuse injury is obvious - systemic overtraining is devious. It builds slowly - even masquerading as a big improvement - before the bottom falls out and you find yourself in free fall.

And if that's not bad enough, once you fall, it can take a very long time to claw your way back up. I flamed out in 2010. I have just *now* started to get back to where I was the year before when everything was starting to click.

That's not meant to scare you, but to warn you to take what's going on with your body seriously. I'm glad you've purchased "The Maffetone Method," because he does such a good job explaining how overtraining occurs and how you can get yourself out of it. The overriding mission behind the book is to help athletes find the balance between fitness and health.

It's a difficult thing to balance, especially because everything we value in ourselves as runners - dedication, enthusiasm, toughness - can work against our best interests in staying healthy. But it's a balance you can achieve, if you temper your ambition and impatience and allow your body to recover and rebuild.

Mark B wrote:Thanks, Tim! I know you and Wendy are doing a 50-miler before me this year, so I'll be watching your progress with more than my usual morbid fascination.

yea, I'm still not too sure how smart it is to do a 50 mile race. I look back at my marathons and my 60k and find it difficult to imagine going that extra distance. The training and pacing will be different so I hope these things together will make it a little more feasible.

T Miller wrote:

Mark B wrote:Thanks, Tim! I know you and Wendy are doing a 50-miler before me this year, so I'll be watching your progress with more than my usual morbid fascination.

yea, I'm still not too sure how smart it is to do a 50 mile race. I look back at my marathons and my 60k and find it difficult to imagine going that extra distance. The training and pacing will be different so I hope these things together will make it a little more feasible.

I hear ya, Tim. I think the same thing when I consider how my last two - no, wait, three... no, wait.. FOUR?!? - marathons went down.

Now that I think if it, I wonder if four is an overstatement. One of them, CIM 2010, came when I was in the middle of being burned out. I had cut way back on training before the race, so I ran it purposefully slow -- and more or less enjoyed nearly the entire distance. There's probably a lesson in there somewhere, if I can ever get it through my thick skull

When it comes to a longer distance, I think the key is going to be learning not just pacing, but moderation in effort. While you run a marathon as close to your LT as you can manage, that sort of approach would be a disaster in an ultra. I suspect that keeping the effort level closer to a MAF heart rate target would be far more effective in parceling out the energy stores as long as possible. That's the strategy I'm envisioning at this point.

Barefoot Run: 3.1 miles on asphalt

Weather: Mostly cloudy, cool, a little breezy (gusts to 11). 45 degrees. Gear: Bare feet, tights, T, pullover, jacket. Fuel: Post-breakfast. Didn't carry water.

I didn't have time for a longer run today, so I went for a "quality" workout running barefoot for just over three miles. I'm thinking I want to maintain a shorter barefoot run every week going forward so I don't lose the proprioceptive edge I get while running sans shoes. Besides, I enjoy running faster at lower effort!

Today was no exception to that rule. On my undulating laps around the block, I hit splits at 9:55, 9:48 and 9:47 with average HR readings of 132, 138 and 140. Nice.

I slightly overdressed to compensate for bare skin on fairly cold pavement. I don't know if it helped, but it was worth a shot. My feet warmed up after a mile or so.


Average HR for the entire run: 137

Well, since I'm now back on trajectory for a 50-miler next year (in July rather than April), I guess it's time to dust off this old training schedule I was toying around with when I was thinking about doing the American River 50.



Looking at this, I have my doubts that it'd work. I want to find a way to work in a barefoot run of at least 3 miles every week (to work on form and proprioception), and I might now finally be ready to return to one early-early run a week - probably on a Wednesday - to get in a few more miles and give me more flexibility the rest of the week. Besides, part of me is starting to miss just how quiet it is around here at 4:45 a.m.

By comparison, here's a 24 week, 50-mile plan from "Relentless Forward Progress." He prescribes speedwork on Thursdays before the rest day. (No matter what, I have to shift my long run to Monday from Sunday.)



Any thoughts? You need to know that I work a Tuesday through Saturday shift, and that I work days on Tuesday and Wednesday and a swing shift on Thursday through Saturday, getting to bed pretty late. That's one reason Saturday is a must-do rest day. I tried running that day before and just about keeled over from sleep deprivation.

Roughly, it could be something like:

Tue: Recovery walk and/or barefoot?
Wed: Early low HR run of 60-90 minutes?
Thu: Mid-morning low HR run of 90-120 minutes?
Fri: Hilly run of 60-90 minutes? Maybe alternating with faster run?
Sat: Rest
Sun: Sorta-long run, up to 10-12 miles
Mon: Long run, on trails as much as possible, 12-31 miles.

This feels sketchy, but maybe it's good enough for now. My goal at this point is to start finding ways to build mileage before the 24-week clock starts ticking.

Thoughts/suggestions are encouraged/requested. Thanks!

Low HR Run: 90 minutes (8.03 miles)

Weather: Overcast, cool and windy. 46 degrees, gusts to 16 mph. Gear: Testers, pants, long-sleeved T, jacket, hat. Fuel: Post breakfast. Carried water in belt.

I was a bit creaky this morning, so I made a point of stretching before today's run, and I focused on keeping my form relaxed and fluid and my heart rate in the zone. I was fairly successful in both areas. My HR tended to slip up to 139-141, but I could get it back down again mostly without having to walk.

I'm still working on form, and I'm happy to have noticed a sensation of my hip muscles starting to more more fluidly. It made me realize just how locked in I must have been before. No wonder people said it was like I had a stick up my... Well, you get the picture.

It was a breezy day, which meant a headwind on a chunk of the route. Glad I wore my running pants, or that would have gotten awfully chilly.

Walked first and last 5 minutes. Average HR for entire run: 135

I don't see enough back-to-back longs in either plan. Not that those have to be run... But I really think they need to be done. I'm talking building up to a 20+30 (okay, at least a 20+20 or 20+25!). Expect both to include copious amounts of hiking.

Mike MacLellan wrote:I don't see enough back-to-back longs in either plan. Not that those have to be run... But I really think they need to be done. I'm talking building up to a 20+30 (okay, at least a 20+20 or 20+25!). Expect both to include copious amounts of hiking.

Oof! I'm not trying to *win* the dang thing, Mike. Just survive it!

Still, I agree that the plans as displayed might be a little insufficient on the whole back-to-back component. I had suspected that my Sunday runs with my training partner would be longer than the plans I posted up. Whether I'd get all the way up to 20, I'm not sure. Depends on how it goes, I guess.

Mark, the book arrived today and fortunately I have 8 hours of car riding this weekend so I should get through a lot of it. Thanks for letting me hijack your blog for this question/rant. As soon as I saw my HR data, I knew I'd be asking you for help.

JohnP wrote:Mark, the book arrived today and fortunately I have 8 hours of car riding this weekend so I should get through a lot of it. Thanks for letting me hijack your blog for this question/rant. As soon as I saw my HR data, I knew I'd be asking you for help.

My pleasure, John. I hope you find the book helpful. I know I have.

Haha, I know, I know. But really, I think what's important with ultra training as opposed to marathoning is time on feet. I'm not talking 3hr. I'm talking up to 2/3 of your predicted race time. So you're looking at some 6-7hr training runs (making a prediction here). The back-to-backs will prepare you for that.

Also, I don't think the midweek runs should have any purpose whatsoever other than to assist in recovery and keep your legs fresh. I seriously wouldn't bother doing any sort of speed or tempo work.

On a macro-cycle level, I'd start with something more similar to marathon training (more evenly split days, build to close to your max mileage), then up your weekend mileage while lowering your mid-week total. Just my 2 cents.

Interesting notion, Mike. So it sounds like you're fully in the "sandwich" camp when it comes to ultra training.

I can see the logic in it: It's all about specificity and familiarization with extended activity. Are you thinking that time-based training is more appropriate for this than distance-based?

What do you mean by "evenly split days"? Doing equal distances/times for all midweek runs? And how far is too far for recovery and keeping the legs peppy?

I could imagine mixing up some 60- to 90- to 120-minute runs during the week on varying terrain (some hilly, some not), with maybe a 30-minute barefoot jaunt thrown in for good measure. Then pretty long on Sunday and REALLY long (preferably on a trail) on Monday.

As for trail running, I have the Wildwood Trail in Forest Park a fairly short drive away, which is very hilly, and some flat-out mountainous trails a little farther away in Beacon Rock State Park in the Columbia River Gorge. The trick is going to be making the time to run that long. I'd almost rather run roads than waste two precious running hours to get to a trail and back again. Hm...

By "evenly split," I meant something along the lines of having 4-5 runs of similar pace, distance, and time with one long run per week. I know marathon plans split it up a little more than that, and you definitely could in your base, if you wanted to, but I would start by building your base evenly like that, rather than a total of 15 midweek miles and then 30-40 weekend miles. I'd definitely start with the opposite (30-40 midweek, broken into 4-5 runs, then 15 weekend miles as your long run) and slowly shift towards the other direction.

Once you're getting your weekend long-long-longs going, I wouldn't make any sort of aggressive plan for your midweek stuff. That was my downfall in ultra training, I think. I had that number - 100 - so ingrained in my head that I sacrificed valuable recovery to hit it. I think I could have handled my weekend longs (got up to 3hr+4hr) with my midweek long (2.5-3hr) if I'd just let every other day be 30-60min, easy, flat, whatever I wanted. But I was doing speed work and doubles and that was a terrible, terrible idea.

Make your long runs (at least one per week) on terrain similar to your race. Try to have at least some of it be at your goal pace (am I correct in assuming you'll incorporate a run-walk strategy?). Test gear, food (I found pb+honey+banana sandwiches wrapped in foil to be pretty easy to get down after some practice), etc. If you don't want to be spending that much time away from home, have your family come for an hour in the middle and do a "fast hike" with them as part of your "run." Yes, it counts.

I didn't believe this going into my training, but I think for 99% of us, the first 50-miler is not a race. It's a moving feast, a fight against attrition. Those are the things you need to train for: eating and continuing. Not racing.

Nice thoughts, Mike! I'll contemplate them before replying to them.

But first...

Low HR Run: 8.31 miles

Weather: Cool and drizzly. 39 degrees. Gear: Testers, tights, T, pullover, jacket, hat, gloves (stowed). Fuel: Coffee, Grape Nuts and rice milk (huge acid burp!), carried water.

An extra-easy 8 miles with my training partner on the Salmon Creek Greenway Trail (bike path). I hardly noticed the HR monitor during the run, other than to notice a few times that I was often below my target of 138. We just cruised along, chatting, and I was enjoying the feeling of the run after a full day off. When I got back home, I was a little surprised by just how low the HR was on some of those miles, not so much by the fact that the pace was slower.

Walked first 5 minutes, last .31 miles. Average HR for entire run: 132.

I've been setting my HR alert on my Garmin to 1 beat lower than the maximum I'm willing to go. Don't need to look at it for the entire run unless I hear the beep or feel the vibration. Downside on setting the alert is if you hit the max and you don't really care to change your rhythm, it's gonna keep reminding you every so often.

dot520 wrote:I've been setting my HR alert on my Garmin to 1 beat lower than the maximum I'm willing to go. Don't need to look at it for the entire run unless I hear the beep or feel the vibration. Downside on setting the alert is if you hit the max and you don't really care to change your rhythm, it's gonna keep reminding you every so often.

I tried that approach once ... for about 1.42 miles, before I stopped and, cursing, figured out how to turn the #$#@! thing off. Beep! Beep! BeeeEEEEPPP!

You clearly have better self-discipline than I do.

Mike MacLellan wrote:By "evenly split," I meant something along the lines of having 4-5 runs of similar pace, distance, and time with one long run per week. I know marathon plans split it up a little more than that, and you definitely could in your base, if you wanted to, but I would start by building your base evenly like that, rather than a total of 15 midweek miles and then 30-40 weekend miles. I'd definitely start with the opposite (30-40 midweek, broken into 4-5 runs, then 15 weekend miles as your long run) and slowly shift towards the other direction.

Once you're getting your weekend long-long-longs going, I wouldn't make any sort of aggressive plan for your midweek stuff. That was my downfall in ultra training, I think. I had that number - 100 - so ingrained in my head that I sacrificed valuable recovery to hit it. I think I could have handled my weekend longs (got up to 3hr+4hr) with my midweek long (2.5-3hr) if I'd just let every other day be 30-60min, easy, flat, whatever I wanted. But I was doing speed work and doubles and that was a terrible, terrible idea.

Make your long runs (at least one per week) on terrain similar to your race. Try to have at least some of it be at your goal pace (am I correct in assuming you'll incorporate a run-walk strategy?). Test gear, food (I found pb+honey+banana sandwiches wrapped in foil to be pretty easy to get down after some practice), etc. If you don't want to be spending that much time away from home, have your family come for an hour in the middle and do a "fast hike" with them as part of your "run." Yes, it counts.

I didn't believe this going into my training, but I think for 99% of us, the first 50-miler is not a race. It's a moving feast, a fight against attrition. Those are the things you need to train for: eating and continuing. Not racing.

Mmm. Moving feast. I like the sound of that.

Oh, wait. Where was I? Oh, right. Your approach to ultra training.

I'm not capable of 100-mile weeks (and I don't think you're suggesting them for me), but I see a lot of merit in your strategy. I could imagine starting off in a more traditional manner and then shifting to a more weekend-centric build. Maybe 1/3 traditional, 2/3 weekend-centric? Maybe.

My current schedule will help that happen naturally. My training partner and I run on Sunday mornings, and I follow with my long run on Monday, when I'm off work and Alita and Alec are in school. I can easily see us building that Sunday run up into the mid-teens, and me hitting the trails on Monday. My primary trail route in Forest Park starts off with a sizable hill, so there's no way I'd be tempted to run the whole thing. Just not possible.

I managed a 4.5-hour run on that trail before I obliterated my ankle training for Tecumseh. That was nearly 22 miles. It probably wouldn't be to difficult to stretch it out to 6 hours. Being out much longer on a Monday would get complicated logistically. I looked for a weekend 50k race at about the time I'd hit that distance (in early June) and, alas, there's nothing. There is a 50K later in the month (June 17), but I wonder if four weeks is too close to the July 13 race day. Besides, that race is the Beacon Rock 50k, with a leg-shredding 7,500 feet of elevation gain. Yipes.

Still, there is a certain masochistic appeal to it...

Fueling has been pretty easy on previous long trail runs. I've used peanut butter granola bars and gels. But I have to admit I got a little rumbly in my tumbly when I kept running past the lunch hour. Maybe something easy to pack and eat, like my famous bean burritos and some grapes, would do the trick. Mmm...

Oops. There I go again.

Anyway, I don't feel a lot of pressure to craft a "master plan" at this stage. I'm going to keep building steadily and see how it goes. I'll keep toying with ideas and probably come up with something a little more structured after the beginning of the year.

Low HR Run: 11 miles

Weather: Overcast. Cool and damp. 47 degrees, 97% humidity. Gear: Testers, shorts, long-sleeved T, jacket/vest (shed sleeves). Fuel: Breakfast, PB granola bar immediately before, Gu after 6 miles, carried water.

I wasted some time dithering this morning over whether to go to a trail or just do my long run of the week on pavement. I finally opted for pavement to save time - it's finally not raining, so I need to get the Christmas lights up this afternoon while I can. Got to keep those priorities straight, you know.

I did 8 miles yesterday, so I decided to aim for about 2 hours. I downed a snack immediately before heading out the door to help my stomach get accustomed to eating on the run, and decided on my route once I got a mile in and had to choose left (the Salmon Creek Greenway Trail) or right (Llama Ridge and the country roads south of Ridgefield).

I picked the trail (actually a bike path), and it seemed to have been a good choice. I approached my turnaround point for a 10-mile run and decided to keep going a little farther. I stretched it out another half mile and was surprised when my body - which should have been getting fatigued by now - shouted MORE! - in my head. Really? I thought about it, then decided to be smart, and turned back at 5.5. The run back was good, a bit chilly with the damp air and a slight breeze, and I made it back home in almost exactly two hours.

Here's a photo of the greenway I took on the way back. I really like the panorama function on the iPhone 5! Fun.




My HR wasn't perfectly low (I attribute that to a little fatigue, not to mention the rolling nature of the trail.) but not bad, either. I got a little burst of speed after a potty break and Gu, which was fun.

Walked first and last 5 minutes. Average HR for entire run: 137

Walk: 2.2 miles

Weather: Rainy, windy (thank goodness for GoreTex!). 46 degrees, gusts to 18 mph.

It was wet and blustery outside, but I couldn't help but get out during lunch for a recovery walk along the Columbia River.

It was rainy and windy - it inverted my umbrella once - but the chop on the water was cool to see, as were the other folks who decided to brave the conditions and get outside, too. At one point, a guy who was jogging at about the speed I was walking floored it and passed me, then slowed back down to his regular pace again. Made me smile. Glad I could give him a little extra challenge to surmount. No, I did not pick up the pace to catch him again.

All in all, it was a great walk. It reminded me of how fortunate I am to simply be able to go out and feel the wind and rain like that. It really was a beautiful day.

Low HR Run: 60 minutes (5.24 miles)

Weather: Showery, breezy, chilly. 42 degrees, 5 mph winds. Gear: Testers, pants, T, pullover, jacket, hat, gloves (stowed). Fuel: Only breakfast, no snack before or fuel during. Carried water on run.

I haven't been running much on Wednesdays, but my work schedule is a little topsy-turvy this week. I took advantage and went out for a rainy run in the country. I overdressed slightly but was glad for it when the rain and wind picked up; if I'd worn less, I'd have gotten very chilled.

I had a difficult time getting my HR to behave - my legs wanted to go faster than my body wanted. I sort of reined it in during the last couple of miles, which of course meant a big drop-off in the pace. I need to remember to keep the HR low at the beginning and see if that helps. What good is a 10-minute first mile when you end up more than a minute slower a few miles later?

Not a big deal, though it does show that I either would benefit from a little more fuel before (or during) the run... or that I'm a little fatigued after running 19 miles over two days on Sunday and Monday, followed by a fast walk on Tuesday.

Still, I'm not complaining. It wasn't a bad run.

Walked first and last 5 minutes. Average HR for entire run: 130