Make No Little Plans

That was quite a marathon story Chris. Thanks for sharing!

T Miller wrote:

jimd wrote:

JohnP wrote:Man, that's some story, or actually multiple stories. Amazing day, how do you top that? It's even more impressive than going to some unknown guy's apartment in Chicago.

Oh, why'd you have to do that Jim? Now you're making me feel bad. I don't want to steal Chris's thunder on his glorious sub 3 day.

Ok. I'm sorry.





I'm a bit scared to run with Chris now, too.

Ok remind me in January NOT to have you sherpa me in the 1/2 because running with you is a bit SCARY to say the least. Yikes!!!



Glad to see they both got their BQ's despite all the issues afterwards.

Did a set of 10 x 800 today. Went well and was surprisingly easy. Here's the weird thing I'm currently concluding about my running. I don't think I'm any faster pure speed wise than I was 18 months ago. But I'm more comfortable running at those speeds than ever. I've done a bunch of 10 x 800 workouts over the past year and half and I've done 1 that was slightly faster than the average for 10 repeats today. But I'm just more comfortable running at speed now than I used to be. I used to be able to gut through speed workouts at roughly the same paces I'm doing now but now the same speeds just feel easier and its not as much effort to match the times. The weird thing is I don't know that I can really turn up the speed any further and lower those times. In the meat of the marathon cycle, this seems about as fast as I'm going to go (5K pace or maybe 10 seconds a mile under). But I am just more in control at that pace than I used to be. So what does all that mean? I have no idea. I'm going to try and take aim at my PR (1:25:05) on Sunday in the Philly Half. Frankly, I'll be a little surprised if I can better that race time and would be over the moon with a sub 1:25. But all the mileage I've done does seem to have me better able to sustain the faster paces than I used to be able to. Maybe that will pay off? In the half? In the full? It sure makes speed workouts easier. This was a relatively easy and effortless 10 x 800 and that's a weird feeling. Anyway, just thinking aloud here. Sometimes I think I'm actually getting slower or simply not getting any faster. But then other times I think my endurance is simply catching up to my speed and while the first part (not getting any faster) may be true, I can still improve race times. Geez, I don't know. That half PR is probably my toughest one to better. I have some very soft PRs (like the marathon!) but the 1:25 half is not one of them. I'll target that pace (6:30) and see how it goes Sunday. I'd like to have the discipline to start with 1-2 miles in the 6:35-6:40 range. Kind of crazy and the very opposite of how I often race but I clearly do benefit from starting slow and then working down into it. I'll have to talk to Dave about the plan for race day.

Chris M wrote:Did a set of 10 x 800 today. Went well and was surprisingly easy. Here's the weird thing I'm currently concluding about my running. I don't think I'm any faster pure speed wise than I was 18 months ago. But I'm more comfortable running at those speeds than ever. I've done a bunch of 10 x 800 workouts over the past year and half and I've done 1 that was slightly faster than the average for 10 repeats today. But I'm just more comfortable running at speed now than I used to be. I used to be able to gut through speed workouts at roughly the same paces I'm doing now but now the same speeds just feel easier and its not as much effort to match the times. The weird thing is I don't know that I can really turn up the speed any further and lower those times. In the meat of the marathon cycle, this seems about as fast as I'm going to go (5K pace or maybe 10 seconds a mile under). But I am just more in control at that pace than I used to be. So what does all that mean? I have no idea. I'm going to try and take aim at my PR (1:25:05) on Sunday in the Philly Half. Frankly, I'll be a little surprised if I can better that race time and would be over the moon with a sub 1:25. But all the mileage I've done does seem to have me better able to sustain the faster paces than I used to be able to. Maybe that will pay off? In the half? In the full? It sure makes speed workouts easier. This was a relatively easy and effortless 10 x 800 and that's a weird feeling. Anyway, just thinking aloud here. Sometimes I think I'm actually getting slower or simply not getting any faster. But then other times I think my endurance is simply catching up to my speed and while the first part (not getting any faster) may be true, I can still improve race times. Geez, I don't know. That half PR is probably my toughest one to better. I have some very soft PRs (like the marathon!) but the 1:25 half is not one of them. I'll target that pace (6:30) and see how it goes Sunday. I'd like to have the discipline to start with 1-2 miles in the 6:35-6:40 range. Kind of crazy and the very opposite of how I often race but I clearly do benefit from starting slow and then working down into it. I'll have to talk to Dave about the plan for race day.

What? You're not going to give us any details about your 10 x 800. Good luck in the half. Are you sure you want to race a half this close to the marathon? Just asking.

I'm going through what you did a year or so ago. Here's my theory on how you feel: you've gotten used to the mileage and aren't recruiting as many fast twitch muscles to become slow twitch any more and can therefore handle the faster stuff easier because you're not trying to change muscle fiber and you're not constantly beat up trying to get used to the mileage. I may be completely wrong, but I've had a lot more trouble with speed work this time around than I used to.

T Miller wrote:

Chris M wrote:Did a set of 10 x 800 today. Went well and was surprisingly easy. Here's the weird thing I'm currently concluding about my running. I don't think I'm any faster pure speed wise than I was 18 months ago. But I'm more comfortable running at those speeds than ever. I've done a bunch of 10 x 800 workouts over the past year and half and I've done 1 that was slightly faster than the average for 10 repeats today. But I'm just more comfortable running at speed now than I used to be. I used to be able to gut through speed workouts at roughly the same paces I'm doing now but now the same speeds just feel easier and its not as much effort to match the times. The weird thing is I don't know that I can really turn up the speed any further and lower those times. In the meat of the marathon cycle, this seems about as fast as I'm going to go (5K pace or maybe 10 seconds a mile under). But I am just more in control at that pace than I used to be. So what does all that mean? I have no idea. I'm going to try and take aim at my PR (1:25:05) on Sunday in the Philly Half. Frankly, I'll be a little surprised if I can better that race time and would be over the moon with a sub 1:25. But all the mileage I've done does seem to have me better able to sustain the faster paces than I used to be able to. Maybe that will pay off? In the half? In the full? It sure makes speed workouts easier. This was a relatively easy and effortless 10 x 800 and that's a weird feeling. Anyway, just thinking aloud here. Sometimes I think I'm actually getting slower or simply not getting any faster. But then other times I think my endurance is simply catching up to my speed and while the first part (not getting any faster) may be true, I can still improve race times. Geez, I don't know. That half PR is probably my toughest one to better. I have some very soft PRs (like the marathon!) but the 1:25 half is not one of them. I'll target that pace (6:30) and see how it goes Sunday. I'd like to have the discipline to start with 1-2 miles in the 6:35-6:40 range. Kind of crazy and the very opposite of how I often race but I clearly do benefit from starting slow and then working down into it. I'll have to talk to Dave about the plan for race day.

What? You're not going to give us any details about your 10 x 800. Good luck in the half. Are you sure you want to race a half this close to the marathon? Just asking.

Today's 10 x 800 was a 2:53 average. First two at 2:59 and then the rest at 2:55 or faster. Last and fastest one was 2:48. Just under a year ago last Fall I did a 2:51 average for the same workout but I was ALL OUT that night. That was a memorable workout for me where I was pushing it hard. Today? I never really felt like I was working. So that's good. What's odd though is that I don't think I could have run any of them down in, say, the mid 2:40s or better. I just don't have that kind of pop in my legs for the top end speed. I can handle that 5:50 or so pace better than ever but something like 5:30 just isn't there. That's fine, I think, for marathoning. But it is different than where I was a year or so ago when I cracked a 5:14 mile. I don't think I could do that right now. But I might just be trying to convince myself that it is OK to be a little slower for the track work a year later - I'll reserve judgment on all that until the afternoon of October 9.



As for racing a half, I do think the timing is pretty ideal. I'm certainly not tapering for it so it is a "training through" race but I like how it lines up with my Chicago cycle. A bunch of big weeks, race at the end of a stepback week, one more big week, two week taper. Plus I get to see and stay with my friend Dan in Philly and it brings me back for my 2nd race ever in that city. Two years ago, I went up there and did the Broad Street and the 1:05 I did then for 10 miles was a huge breakthrough race for me at the time. That was the first race where afterwards I thought that a BQ wouldn't be the end of what I would shoot for time-wise for marathon goals. It sure would be cool to have another Philly feel-good result for me like that on Sunday. If I can just run the 1:05 again for 10 miles, I should be in line to then try and sneak under 20:00 for the final 5K and nab a PR. Putting it that was all sounds doable but I'm sure it will be far tougher to execute.

Good Luck at the Half on Sunday.

Glad to see that you are running strong. The good thing about distance running is that you don't really have to have great top end speed if you can hold it for a long time. It looks like you are getting to that point. Keep up the good work.

It was great to read that Scott and Vivian got their BQs as well. That was a lot of post-race craziness though, as well as a difficult sounding course. I'm glad things worked out okay in the end.

I hope that your race goes well this weekend. Keep up the good work.

Have a great race, Chris!

We will see how it pays off, just make sure to trust your training, and Good Luck on Sunday!

Good luck on the half in Philly. I love Philly races and hopefully the weather will be fairly cool to take weather out of the equation.

For the 800s, what is the recovery interval and do you walk or job or do easy pace? I've found that a longer recovery time or slow recovery pace can make the actual repeats go easier.

I haven't been blogging much Chris, but I haven't forgotten how we have gone through similar marathon disappointments & are trying to redeem ourselves this fall. I'm happy to see that you're doing well so far & I wish you the best for your half this Sunday.

Good luck on Sunday!

JohnP wrote:Good luck on the half in Philly. I love Philly races and hopefully the weather will be fairly cool to take weather out of the equation.

For the 800s, what is the recovery interval and do you walk or job or do easy pace? I've found that a longer recovery time or slow recovery pace can make the actual repeats go easier.

Every time I do 10x800, I do it the "Yasso" way which is a jogged 400 between each 800 and not exceeding the amount of time for that recovery interval. So, if I am targetting 3:00 per 800, each recovery would be no more than 3:00 done over a 400. That's pretty slow (12:00 pace) so I usually end up being somewhere between 2:00 and 2:45 for the 400 time with a combination of jogging and sometimes slowing to a walk to drink some water. I cheat a little for all speed work at the track by basically never starting from a standstill. Every repeat I do, whether it is a 400 or a mile is always done as a moving start. I don't like going from pure stationary to track speed.



10 x800 is probably the single track workout I've done most often in the past 2 years. I've probably done it 8-10 times in total. I always do well with it and have NEVER had it match up with the marathon time I've then run! So much for it being a great predictor. As I've said many times about the Yasso Test, my current view is that if you CAN'T do 10x800 at your goal marathon time (ie 800s in 3:30 or less if you are targetting a 3:30 marathon) you are doomed. Its a negative predictor in that sense. Absent being injured or something extreme, you should be able to knock out 5 miles of 800s done at around 5K pace given the long rest interval time. So I do like it as a test that I feel I must pass and it is a nice track workout in that it does have a lot of volume in it as well. With w/u and c/d and all those 400s between, you end up with 10-12 miles for the workout.



Thanks for all the good luck wishes for Sunday. I'll just line up and see how it goes. Should be a fun race.

Best wishes this weekend. If I am reading between the lines correctly, Dave-O's case may prevent him from attending this weekend. Either way, have fun!

A couple of pictures from Sunday's marathon. It would appear I was having a lot more fun during this run thatn Scott. First one is from about the half way point and 2nd is right as we hit the finish line chute. Scott is 10 seconds from doing a legs buckling pass out at the line move on me in that one. I don't score high marks for being too aware than my runner I'm pacing is in that kind of distress! But hey, he got the BQ and will be running Boston in April so it is all good!

You do appear to be relishing his misery in the one photo!
Good luck with the race, and hope you get good weather for it.

Yeah, you do appear to be having WAY too much fun while your buddy is hanging on. By the looks of him, he really gutted it out so props to him. Go get em this weekend - best of luck!

John Kilpatrick wrote:Yeah, you do appear to be having WAY too much fun while your buddy is hanging on. By the looks of him, he really gutted it out so props to him. Go get em this weekend - best of luck!

He looks happier here....IN THE MEDICAL TENT.....because he got the BQ! It was a Suffer-Fest for him by the end but we've all been there in marathons, right?

I'm thinking there's something with a tasty buzz in that IV bag!

Those pics are classic! You're cruising along and he's on the brink of collapse!

John Kilpatrick wrote:Yeah, you do appear to be having WAY too much fun while your buddy is hanging on. By the looks of him, he really gutted it out so props to him. Go get em this weekend - best of luck!

You were definitely not a guide dog in a former life, Chris!

Still, good job dragging him to a BQ! (Even so, you're never pacing me. Ever.)

Are you doing much core work at all? In those pics, you are fully straight while your friend is slouched over in each one. The posture is very good, very nice job.

Michael Enright wrote:I'm thinking there's something with a tasty buzz in that IV bag!

He does look a little like Steve-O in that photo...