Trails for Two

Looks like you're making steady progress.  Maintaining your HR during your hill TM workout is probably a positive considering the longer and up tempo outings you've completed recently.

Our weather has been interesting.  We've had some fabulous days...some very windy days...and then some downpours.  Good to hear you've managed to get out there when it's been relatively dry.  That's tough to do in your area!

nkrichards wrote:Looks like you're making steady progress.  Maintaining your HR during your hill TM workout is probably a positive considering the longer and up tempo outings you've completed recently.

Our weather has been interesting.  We've had some fabulous days...some very windy days...and then some downpours.  Good to hear you've managed to get out there when it's been relatively dry.  That's tough to do in your area!

It sure has been this year! The weather service released rain statistics for the past fall and winter and said it the seasons just ended came in fifth for precipitation and fifth for total number of days with at least .10 inch of rain since they started keeping statistics in 1892. So it hasn't been our imaginations.

I was looking at your hydration/energy/electrolyte intake during your longer run and I have a couple questions.
I've always used Gatorade or similar on moderate runs and then added Gu as the runs got long enough to justify it.  I do use Nuun a bit now as well.  In fact I often have it after a run to replenish and rehydrate.  I also used Scaps and Hammer Endurolytes when I had cramping issues in the past.

So my questions...

1. I like the Nuun but it doesn't provide a lot of carbs.  Are you getting enough carbs when you rely on Nuun?  I do like the mix of electrolytes it provides.
   
2. I noticed that you also take Scaps on longer runs.  They primarily provide sodium and a small amount of potassium.  I guess my question is why you go with something that just provides sodium?  It must work for you.
   
3. I did notice that you had a Larabar on your long run.  Do you have any trouble chewing and swallowing it while running?  Does it digest and get into your system quickly?  I've never tried solid food during a run.
   

We got rain again last night....

nkrichards wrote:I was looking at your hydration/energy/electrolyte intake during your longer run and I have a couple questions.
I've always used Gatorade or similar on moderate runs and then added Gu as the runs got long enough to justify it.  I do use Nuun a bit now as well.  In fact I often have it after a run to replenish and rehydrate.  I also used Scaps and Hammer Endurolytes when I had cramping issues in the past.

So my questions...

1. I like the Nuun but it doesn't provide a lot of carbs.  Are you getting enough carbs when you rely on Nuun?  I do like the mix of electrolytes it provides.
   
2. I noticed that you also take Scaps on longer runs.  They primarily provide sodium and a small amount of potassium.  I guess my question is why you go with something that just provides sodium?  It must work for you.
   
3. I did notice that you had a Larabar on your long run.  Do you have any trouble chewing and swallowing it while running?  Does it digest and get into your system quickly?  I've never tried solid food during a run.
   

We got rain again last night....

Great questions! And luckily, I have answers. 

1. I use nuun specifically because it doesn't have many carbs. Sugary drinks set up a blood sugar spike-and-crash cycle that are really unpleasant when you're going extra-long. Better to teach the body to burn fat and get your carbs in lower glycemic ways. 

1a. Also a factor is that ultras are run at a much lower intensity level than racing a shorter distance, so you're not sucking the glycogen out of your legs at nearly as fast a rate. If I were racing a shorter distance, I'd be taking gels.

2. I've experimented with S-Caps and Endurolytes over the years. Endurolytes have a greater range of electrolytes, but less sodium, and they need to be taken more often. I haven't been able to get a sense that one works tremendously better than the other, so I go with convenience of fewer caps per hour. And I think my legs get less crampy over time with the S-Caps. Maybe.

3. I don't try to run and consume solid food at the same time. That'd be difficult. I do try to walk at the same time, however. Again, it's an ultra thing: Lower intensity levels make things a lot more possible than if you're hammering along at the edge of your lactate threshold trying to PR in a marathon. Since I'm running mostly on stored fat, the goal of fueling is slightly different -- it's to keep the blood sugar level steady and help supplement calories from fat. 

Hope that makes sense!

Yes, we're getting more rain here, too.

Mark B wrote:

nkrichards wrote:I was looking at your hydration/energy/electrolyte intake during your longer run and I have a couple questions.
I've always used Gatorade or similar on moderate runs and then added Gu as the runs got long enough to justify it.  I do use Nuun a bit now as well.  In fact I often have it after a run to replenish and rehydrate.  I also used Scaps and Hammer Endurolytes when I had cramping issues in the past.

So my questions...

1. I like the Nuun but it doesn't provide a lot of carbs.  Are you getting enough carbs when you rely on Nuun?  I do like the mix of electrolytes it provides.
   
2. I noticed that you also take Scaps on longer runs.  They primarily provide sodium and a small amount of potassium.  I guess my question is why you go with something that just provides sodium?  It must work for you.
   
3. I did notice that you had a Larabar on your long run.  Do you have any trouble chewing and swallowing it while running?  Does it digest and get into your system quickly?  I've never tried solid food during a run.
   

We got rain again last night....

Great questions! And luckily, I have answers. 

1. I use nuun specifically because it doesn't have many carbs. Sugary drinks set up a blood sugar spike-and-crash cycle that are really unpleasant when you're going extra-long. Better to teach the body to burn fat and get your carbs in lower glycemic ways. 

1a. Also a factor is that ultras are run at a much lower intensity level than racing a shorter distance, so you're not sucking the glycogen out of your legs at nearly as fast a rate. If I were racing a shorter distance, I'd be taking gels.

2. I've experimented with S-Caps and Endurolytes over the years. Endurolytes have a greater range of electrolytes, but less sodium, and they need to be taken more often. I haven't been able to get a sense that one works tremendously better than the other, so I go with convenience of fewer caps per hour. And I think my legs get less crampy over time with the S-Caps. Maybe.

3. I don't try to run and consume solid food at the same time. That'd be difficult. I do try to walk at the same time, however. Again, it's an ultra thing: Lower intensity levels make things a lot more possible than if you're hammering along at the edge of your lactate threshold trying to PR in a marathon. Since I'm running mostly on stored fat, the goal of fueling is slightly different -- it's to keep the blood sugar level steady and help supplement calories from fat. 

Hope that makes sense!

Yes, we're getting more rain here, too.

Thanks Mark.  Yes, those answers do make sense.  I'm glad I asked!

I like Scaps better than Endurolytes - but that is just my experience.   I train with Nuun, but I often just drink whatever is on a course during a marathon.  When I did my only 70.3, I used Infinit which will customize a formula for an athlete.  I used it in combination with gels and it worked great.

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:I like Scaps better than Endurolytes - but that is just my experience.   I train with Nuun, but I often just drink whatever is on a course during a marathon.  When I did my only 70.3, I used Infinit which will customize a formula for an athlete.  I used it in combination with gels and it worked great.

I've used different drinks during ultras with varying degrees of success. Heck, I've even knocked back some Mountain Dew at one race. That'll perk you up. 

Regarding sodium and potassium, I believe I have read that both need to be in balance, even though we typically consume the sodium, unless you also grab a banana, which is the potassium king.  I would like to suggest another source of potassium, if you don't want to eat a banana.  Cream of Tartar is a great source of potassium and can be mixed with a beverage.

Regarding eating on the run, in my carb diet days, I would bring Fig Newtons with me.  Not sticky, easy to chew, and perfect for the frugal runner, when bought on sale of course.  The fat-based me doesn't eat any food during a run or a race.  Ultra me will entertain something, just for grins and mental health.  I use SCaps, but the upcoming ultra has Endurolytes as a sponsor, so I'll use those provided.

ounce wrote:Regarding sodium and potassium, I believe I have read that both need to be in balance, even though we typically consume the sodium, unless you also grab a banana, which is the potassium king.  I would like to suggest another source of potassium, if you don't want to eat a banana.  Cream of Tartar is a great source of potassium and can be mixed with a beverage.

Regarding eating on the run, in my carb diet days, I would bring Fig Newtons with me.  Not sticky, easy to chew, and perfect for the frugal runner, when bought on sale of course.  The fat-based me doesn't eat any food during a run or a race.  Ultra me will entertain something, just for grins and mental health.  I use SCaps, but the upcoming ultra has Endurolytes as a sponsor, so I'll use those provided.

Fig Newtons are yummy. On my 50-miler, I packed a number of ginger sandwich cookies in my pack, and those were nice treats.

Trail Run: 11.23 miles (corrected from 10.25 on garmin)

Weather: Partly cloudy with a couple of showers. 48-52° Gear: Lone Peaks, shorts, long-sleeved T, jacket, hat, gloves (sometimes)

A stepback week long run, done on Saturday this time to take advantage of better weather. It's supposed to be much more rainy tomorrow. We were back out at Whipple Creek Park, our own 300-acre wood, and did big laps around the perimeter. Each lap is about 2.5 miles, with a lot of variety of terrain that makes it far less tedious than the other loop route we'd been running (it was bout 1.7 miles). Longer loop means fewer laps, and that's nice.

The weather was pretty good, though we got rained on a couple of times, briefly. The mud is pretty impressive in some parts, though. One mud patch sucked my shoe off, which would have been funny if I hadn't tried to stick the landing on the shod foot and irritated my knee. I seem fine now (and yes, Alita got a photo of it), so it's all good. Alita was a bit put out that SHE hasn't lost a shoe in the mud yet and hopes she gets lucky/unlucky soon.

Walked first and last 5 minutes or so. Average HR for entire run: 121

Low HR Run: 3 miles

Weather: Craptastic. Overcast, rainy, windy. 48° but felt colder. Gear: Shorts, T, lightweight pullover, jacket, hat, gloves.

So glad we did our long run yesterday. It's been raining all day today, varying from steady and sorta light to fairly heavy. We waited it out as long as we could and finally gave up and settled for steady and sorta light. We weren't too enthused, so we cut the original distance in half and figured that was better than nothing.

My knee complained a little at first but didn't get any worse, so that's something.

Walked first and last 5 minutes. Average HR for entire run: 113

Oh the things runners envy.  Maybe Alita will instead get a face full of mud.  I recommend packing two slices of cucumbers for the photo op.

Some miles are better than no miles. 

I guess Alec hasn't figured out that running for non-competitive reasons might impress a girl?

ounce wrote:Oh the things runners envy.  Maybe Alita will instead get a face full of mud.  I recommend packing two slices of cucumbers for the photo op.

Some miles are better than no miles. 

I guess Alec hasn't figured out that running for non-competitive reasons might impress a girl?

Funny you mention that. Alita caught a toe on a root in the middle of a big patch of mud and almost did a Superman. She was slightly disappointed that she didn't...

Alec has not figured that out, no.

Up-Tempo Run: 4.23 miles

Weather: Partly cloudy, cool. 45° Gear: Topos, shorts, T, lightweight pullover, jacket (shed), hat, gloves (shed)

I got a break in the weather this morning, which was a welcome change of pace.

Speaking of change of pace, I did that, too. My body wanted to go faster this morning, so I started picking up the speed even in my first warm-up mile. (After the 5 minute walk) I did each of the following three miles faster than the one before (9:45, 9:19; 8:56). I was working pretty hard in that last mile, but it was far from a maximum effort. I could feel my body flirting with the LT barrier, though, and tried to keep it below that level until the last push. Nice to see the instant timer showing a pace in the 7s at one point (7:19) while running on the flat.

Walked first and last 5 minutes. Average HR for entire run: 140. Max HR: 165

Walk: 3 miles

Weather: Overcast, muggy. Didn't rain, though. 53°

Didn't get my run in this morning, but I was able to get out for a lunchtime walk. The rain had stopped, which was nice, and I just relaxed and strolled along.

  How ARE you able to handle 53 degrees and muggy??!!??  AND in the DAYLIGHT!!!    

So how are the Topos working with your uh, unique tootsies?

ounce wrote:  How ARE you able to handle 53 degrees and muggy??!!??  AND in the DAYLIGHT!!!    

So how are the Topos working with your uh, unique tootsies?

It was pretty warm. Thankfully, I was well hydrated.

Topos are working out pretty well, actually (thanks, Michele!). I might have developed some peroneal tendinitis because of them, but it may be something else.

Barefoot Run: 4.16 miles

Weather: Partly cloudy, a bit of rain. 43° Gear: Bare feet, shorts, T, light pullover, jacket, hat, gloves (shed)

I didn't get my barefoot run in yesterday so I decided to do it today rather than my hill workout. Perhaps I'll do that tomorrow.

The run was rough getting started. My knee complained until it warmed up, and the temperature was just cold enough to make the soles of my feet extra-sensitive to the itty-bitty chunks of rock on the road. That eased up after a mile.

My HR was quite low during the run. I didn't feel like pushing the pace to get up to 138, and the paces were pretty good anyway.

Average HR for entire run: 131

Mark B wrote:

ounce wrote:  How ARE you able to handle 53 degrees and muggy??!!??  AND in the DAYLIGHT!!!    

So how are the Topos working with your uh, unique tootsies?

It was pretty warm. Thankfully, I was well hydrated.

Topos are working out pretty well, actually (thanks, Michele!). I might have developed some perineal tendinitis because of them, but it may be something else.

Is that perineal tendinitis anything like perennial tinnitus?  THAT'S a bell ringer!  :::rim shot:::

Sorry about the perioneal tendinitis - I get that from time to time, and I'm not betting on the shoes, but more on the ramping up of mileage.  It is kind of like shin splints and it too will pass.

ounce wrote:Is that perineal tendinitis anything like perennial tinnitus?  THAT'S a bell ringer!  :::rim shot:::

Ba-da-boom!

No, not quite.

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Sorry about the perioneal tendinitis - I get that from time to time, and I'm not betting on the shoes, but more on the ramping up of mileage.  It is kind of like shin splints and it too will pass.

Thanks, Michele. It's not too bad. It's been going on for months now -- even before I ramped up the training. My podiatrist thinks it's a side effect of my crazy feet, and the fact that my mechanics down there lead me to use the smaller muscles on the outside edge of my leg to do the work my big calf muscle would do... it it was big and strong, which it never has been. I'm supposed to be doing about a bazillion heel raises a day to work on that, but it's easy to forget.

Edit to add: Shoes can play a role on this for me, since my foot is so curved that sometimes the outside edge of my foot pushes against the upper right where the peroneal tendon attaches. That's something I have to watch with shoes. There's a bit of pressure with the Topos, but not as much as others.

Walk: 3 miles

Weather: Mostly sunny, about 50°

A nice early spring day, and I had time to slip out at lunchtime for a walk. The Columbia River is still about a foot above flood stage, so it made for some interesting views -- it's striking just how big that river is, especially now. And it covered part of the riverside path, so my turnaround point was obvious. Wading in work clothes would be problematic. :-)

Low HR run with fast finish: 4.68 miles

Weather: Drizzly. 48° Gear: Topos, shorts, long-sleeved T, jacket, hat.

Out for an hour-long Saturday run with Alita, in the drizzle. We had an appointment at noon, so we opted for a slightly shorter distance to ensure we'd be ready on time.

We took it easy for nearly all of the run, but Alita started picking up the pace with about 5 minutes to go before we did our walking break. I let her pick it up, then challenged her to hold it for 5 minutes, then 4, then 3, then 2.. she started saying she couldn't hold it any longer, and I said she could do it for two more minutes, one more minute, then when we hit 30 seconds till walk, I suggested she REALLY push and watched her pace get down below a 7-minute pace as I counted down the seconds running alongside. She was seriously gassed by the time she was done, but she did it.

Walked first and last 5 minutes. Average HR for entire run: 122. Max HR: 153

Trail run: 11.13 miles (Garmin originally said 10.3)

Weather: Partly sunny, a few raindrops, 45-54° Gear: Lone Peaks, shorts, T/pullover changed to long-sleeved T.

Our goal was a 15 miler but neither of us was up for it today, so we cut the run short at what my Garmin initially said was 10.3 and later map-corrected to 11.13. Still a good workout, especially considering the terrain.

The weather was pretty good, but it was just cool enough we had to change tops as the day warmed up a bit. We'd anticipated that, and brought different gear. One advantage to having a base of operations and running loops. Still, I'll be glad when it warms up a bit more.

Fueling was a bit of an issue. We got a bit crabby at one point and it slowly dawned on me that we were running short on fuel, so we had something immediately, and it helped. Whew!

Alita couldn't figure out why she felt so gassed today, until we remembered our very fast finish yesterday that probably sucked a bunch of glycogen out of her legs and strained the muscle tissue a bit. Oopsie.

Walked first and last 5 minutes. Average HR for entire run: 121

Good run - remember getting out there the next day, while feeling rather shitty, will actually help for the future and fitness