35, 5, and 2

Interesting points. I remember when I tried South Beaching it a few years ago, I had a pretty rough transition on my runs - I slowed w-a-y down at first - but it did get better over time as my body adapted.

Mark B wrote:Interesting points. I remember when I tried South Beaching it a few years ago, I had a pretty rough transition on my runs - I slowed w-a-y down at first - but it did get better over time as my body adapted.

I took a look at 'What I Can Eat' on the South Beach website and it's less restrictive than Nutritional Ketosis, so they're not trying to get you to maintain a certain blood ketone level or even using keto-sticks.  I can see why the transition was pretty rough, in my estimation, because the body is somewhat confused on what to use as its primary fuel source:  glycogen from carbs or fatty acids from non-carbing.  For a non-intensive exercise person, the diet seems to not radically impose on the participant a stringent diet, unless you're a bon bon or Krispy Kreme addict.

ounce wrote:

Mark B wrote:Interesting points. I remember when I tried South Beaching it a few years ago, I had a pretty rough transition on my runs - I slowed w-a-y down at first - but it did get better over time as my body adapted.

I took a look at 'What I Can Eat' on the South Beach website and it's less restrictive than Nutritional Ketosis, so they're not trying to get you to maintain a certain blood ketone level or even using keto-sticks.  I can see why the transition was pretty rough, in my estimation, because the body is somewhat confused on what to use as its primary fuel source:  glycogen from carbs or fatty acids from non-carbing.  For a non-intensive exercise person, the diet seems to not radically impose on the participant a stringent diet, unless you're a bon bon or Krispy Kreme addict.

That's correct. When I did the diet for real about 9 years ago, I wasn't active. But I lost 47 pounds. (The amount of fat that'd fit a 5-gallon bucket, if you're curious.) The diet actually seeks to avoid ketosis, which it saw as unsustainable and a shock to the system - which was one of the big differences between South Beach and the Atkins Diet.

We never really went back to eating the way we did before, thank goodness, but its definitely a bigger challenge getting it dialed in when you're more active.

Oh, you'd mentioned insulin resistance. One thing that makes me believe that is not the case is that my last blood sugar test had me on the lower end of normal - about 76 nonfasting - whereas those with insulin resistance/metabolic syndrome tend to have borderline to high blood sugar in tests.

Interesting.  I eat very little of what most people would refer to as "runner's carbs" like pasta, rice, or bread.  I have about a bagel a week as I sometimes see to crave the carbs, but I mostly get my "carbs" natural sources like fruits and veggies.  What is that typically called and is that the "right" or a "good" approach?  I don't need to lose weight, just look for the right balance and maintain endurance.

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Interesting.  I eat very little of what most people would refer to as "runner's carbs" like pasta, rice, or bread.  I have about a bagel a week as I sometimes see to crave the carbs, but I mostly get my "carbs" natural sources like fruits and veggies.  What is that typically called and is that the "right" or a "good" approach?  I don't need to lose weight, just look for the right balance and maintain endurance.

Michele, my opinion would be to eliminate sugar and eat food beginning with the raw material.  I'm not saying eat it raw, but don't purchase processed food because you can't control what is in the final product.  I would severely limit grains because you can get more fiber from vegetables than bread.

People have been going against high fructose corn syrup, but agave has more fructose in it than high fructose corn syrup.  So going natural isn't always the best option.

If I wasn't doing ketosis, I would lean towards a eating pattern by Jonathan Bailor called The Smarter Science of Slim.  He has podcasts and a website.  He lives in Seattle.

So my blood ketone level was 0.8, this morning which was up a smidgen from yesterday's 0.7.

I need some help analyzing what I ran, this morning.  5 easy miles was on the schedule for today.  I drove up to Memorial Park and decided to run 6 because that would be two loops around the trail.

I started off easy, after all it was an easy run.  At mile 2.1, a girl passes me pretty slowly.  AUDIBLE!  At that point, Tuesday's interval run is now.  I get about 3 strides behind her and we're off.  I looked at my watch and the average pace up to that point was 13:54 and an average HR of 125 or so.  She didn't look like she was going to go too fast, so this was cool!  My only concern was whether she would go further than 1 or 2 miles.  My past rabbits have only been 1 or 2 miles.

She starts speeding up so slowly, that I was able to think we weren't going too fast and was able to keep up.  She kept running past the second mile.  I had to quit at rabbit mile 4 (total of 6 miles) because 6 miles was my goal for the day.  I stayed with her the whole time.  At rabbit mile 2.8, I noticed some slight discomfort in my quads that I would equate to a lactate accumulation maybe?  It was never bad, but I noticed it.  At rabbit mile 3 (1 complete loop), my average pace dropped from 13:54 at the start of this interval run to 12:19. 

That was the first time I had checked my watch, since starting the interval.  I didn't want the time or HR to influence anything.  I just wanted to run with her and analyze it later.  With a half mile to go, I checked my HR and it was at 170 or 85%.

There were times when she would slow down to a 2 stride lead or speed up to a 5 stride lead, but I worked at keeping it 3 strides.  She was very consistent on pace, generally, and was never concerned about me tailing her.

I'd like to know what my rabbit run means and how I can interpret or apply what it could mean to my long distance running. 

I did 4 miles with the girl and probably could've done one more.  IF it was a 10K race, I might've been able to do the whole 10K at that pace.  She had a fuel belt on, so she didn't need to stop for water, which means I didn't stop for the whole 6.

It was 73 degrees with 100% humidity.

5.81 miles, 1:10:33, 12:09 pace, 143 avg HR, 172 max HR during the last mile, non-rabbit pace 13:54 for 2.1 miles, rabbit pace 10:24 for 3.61 miles.

1. 13:49, 121 bpm
   
2. 13:56, 122 bpm
   
3. 12:19, 140 bpm
   
4. 10:58, 159 bpm
   
5. 10:48, 167 bpm
   
6. 10:45 pace, 169 bpm
   

It was a fun run and I didn't have any quad or any other shortcomings afterwards.

Thanks for your input.

That, sir, was a nearly perfectly executed tempo run.  I'd have preferred to see a mile or two cool down, but that's a great workout, especially if you were around 85% HR max.  I honestly think that tempo runs have been the second biggest factor in a lot of the improvements I've seen right behind increased mileage.  If you can sustain that pace for six miles and do that workout on a regular basis, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the gains you make.  Tempo pace makes MP feel soooo much slower.  This would also eliminate the need/want to run your longest runs at MP.

If you could stretch that out to 8 miles with 5 @ tempo, (2 miles w/u, 1 mile c/d), that would be even better.  I currently do 10 w/6 @ tempo and when I nail that workout, I really feel like I'm making lots of progress fitness wise.

Oh, and yes, that slight discomfort in the legs, which probably felt like a case of slowly creeping fatigue, was definitely lactic acid accumulating based on the pace you were going and HR.  Don't be surprised if you have a decent amount of residual fatigue in the legs tomorrow.

Nicely done, Doug! That burning you felt in your legs means it's working.

No doubt you surpassed your lactate threshold on this run. You wouldn't want to push it any harder, I think, but if you do this regularly (weekly), you'll really notice the difference come race day.

All you need to do is find out what race your rabbit is running and register.

As Jim said, nice tempo run.  And the next time you see her, thank her for the help and let her know you are not some crazy stalker:shock:

mul21 wrote:That, sir, was a nearly perfectly executed tempo run.  I'd have preferred to see a mile or two cool down, but that's a great workout, especially if you were around 85% HR max.  I honestly think that tempo runs have been the second biggest factor in a lot of the improvements I've seen right behind increased mileage.  If you can sustain that pace for six miles and do that workout on a regular basis, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the gains you make.  Tempo pace makes MP feel soooo much slower.  This would also eliminate the need/want to run your longest runs at MP.

If you could stretch that out to 8 miles with 5 @ tempo, (2 miles w/u, 1 mile c/d), that would be even better.  I currently do 10 w/6 @ tempo and when I nail that workout, I really feel like I'm making lots of progress fitness wise.

Oh, and yes, that slight discomfort in the legs, which probably felt like a case of slowly creeping fatigue, was definitely lactic acid accumulating based on the pace you were going and HR.  Don't be surprised if you have a decent amount of residual fatigue in the legs tomorrow.

Mark B wrote:Nicely done, Doug! That burning you felt in your legs means it's working.

No doubt you surpassed your lactate threshold on this run. You wouldn't want to push it any harder, I think, but if you do this regularly (weekly), you'll really notice the difference come race day.

All you need to do is find out what race your rabbit is running and register.

Hey, thanks much for your comments.  What's the upper limit on distance for a tempo run during a marathon training cycle?  Would the tempo run be more important than hill running?  I can only run either 3 or 4 times a week.  Thanks again.

Guess I'll use the Garmin's Virtual Trainer, if I can't find a rabbit.

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:As Jim said, nice tempo run.  And the next time you see her, thank her for the help and let her know you are not some crazy stalker:shock:

Coincedentally, Michele, it looked like she wasn't going to continue rabbitting after rabbit mile 2 and go in a different direction.  I yelled out "Thank you" because we were both wearing earphones, but she made a left at the exact corner of the loop, where I rounded the corner, and kept being my rabbit for two more miles.

Unless the race your running is hilly, a tempo run is ABSOLUTELY more critical to marathon success than hill training. One builds strength - the other builds speed endurance. You want the latter.

Once a week is good, and you don't need to stay at that tempo speed for all that long to get the benefit. What you did today was good - though I agree it would have been better with a couple miles of cool-down.

ounce wrote:

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Interesting.  I eat very little of what most people would refer to as "runner's carbs" like pasta, rice, or bread.  I have about a bagel a week as I sometimes see to crave the carbs, but I mostly get my "carbs" natural sources like fruits and veggies.  What is that typically called and is that the "right" or a "good" approach?  I don't need to lose weight, just look for the right balance and maintain endurance.

Michele, my opinion would be to eliminate sugar and eat food beginning with the raw material.  I'm not saying eat it raw, but don't purchase processed food because you can't control what is in the final product.  I would severely limit grains because you can get more fiber from vegetables than bread.

People have been going against high fructose corn syrup, but agave has more fructose in it than high fructose corn syrup.  So going natural isn't always the best option.

If I wasn't doing ketosis, I would lean towards a eating pattern by Jonathan Bailor called The Smarter Science of Slim.  He has podcasts and a website.  He lives in Seattle.

I'll have to look him up.  I rarely eat sugar, don't use sweeteners except for honey in green tea, and I basically eat most of my veggies either simply steamed or raw.  I know, I'm very boring, but I do eat out at least 1x per week when my hubby is home and that is my vice (along with red wine and/or a good beer which I also try to reserve for the weekend).  It is easy to eat like this when I am home as I am by myself 90% of the time, but I'm still trying to make sure that I am fueling my body the best.

Well, there's certainly more than one way to skin a cat and there's several options for doing these.  There's the Hal style tempo where you gradually increase speed, peak at about 10K pace, then slow back down.  There's the Hanson's version where you're basically running MP for anywhere from 6-10 miles plus a warm up and cool down. 

Then you've got the more traditional version, which I do, where you start a little slower than your true tempo pace and work down to a little faster than your true tempo pace.  For example, I had a really good one last week where I started at 7:30 and knocked the speed up by 0.1 on the treadmill every mile. I went 7:30, 7:24, 7:19, 7:13, 7:08, 7:03 with a 2 mile warm up and cool down for 10 miles total.  You can start even a little slower (MP for example) and extend it out to 8-10 miles at tempo, but I think going beyond 6 is overkill unless you're approaching 3 hour marathon territory.

I would agree with Mark that unless you're running an exceptionally hilly marathon that the tempos will reap a much greater benefit than hills.  Even then, you'd be best served to just do your long runs on hilly terrain to prepare yourself.

Mark B wrote:Unless the race your running is hilly, a tempo run is ABSOLUTELY more critical to marathon success than hill training. One builds strength - the other builds speed endurance. You want the latter.

Once a week is good, and you don't need to stay at that tempo speed for all that long to get the benefit. What you did today was good - though I agree it would have been better with a couple miles of cool-down.

Houston isn't hilly, but running a parking garage back for 2012 helped.  On my weights day, I can do some weighted squats or dead lifts to replace it.  thank you Dr Mark

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:

ounce wrote:

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Interesting.  I eat very little of what most people would refer to as "runner's carbs" like pasta, rice, or bread.  I have about a bagel a week as I sometimes see to crave the carbs, but I mostly get my "carbs" natural sources like fruits and veggies.  What is that typically called and is that the "right" or a "good" approach?  I don't need to lose weight, just look for the right balance and maintain endurance.

Michele, my opinion would be to eliminate sugar and eat food beginning with the raw material.  I'm not saying eat it raw, but don't purchase processed food because you can't control what is in the final product.  I would severely limit grains because you can get more fiber from vegetables than bread.

People have been going against high fructose corn syrup, but agave has more fructose in it than high fructose corn syrup.  So going natural isn't always the best option.

If I wasn't doing ketosis, I would lean towards a eating pattern by Jonathan Bailor called The Smarter Science of Slim.  He has podcasts and a website.  He lives in Seattle.

I'll have to look him up.  I rarely eat sugar, don't use sweeteners except for honey in green tea, and I basically eat most of my veggies either simply steamed or raw.  I know, I'm very boring, but I do eat out at least 1x per week when my hubby is home and that is my vice (along with red wine and/or a good beer which I also try to reserve for the weekend).  It is easy to eat like this when I am home as I am by myself 90% of the time, but I'm still trying to make sure that I am fueling my body the best.

1L, no plan is perfect, but the boy's done a lot of research and has come up with a plan.  He thinks marathoning is excessive, but respects those of us that do it as a hobby.  I'd start with the first 5 podcasts to see how you take it.  His attitude is NOT 'love it or shove it.'

Your eating plan isn't boring.  Eating at home is the most controlled environment to execute your plan, if it's different than the SAD (Standard American Diet) lifestyle being marketed to everyone.

mul21 wrote:Well, there's certainly more than one way to skin a cat and there's several options for doing these.  There's the Hal style tempo where you gradually increase speed, peak at about 10K pace, then slow back down.  There's the Hanson's version where you're basically running MP for anywhere from 6-10 miles plus a warm up and cool down. 

Then you've got the more traditional version, which I do, where you start a little slower than your true tempo pace and work down to a little faster than your true tempo pace.  For example, I had a really good one last week where I started at 7:30 and knocked the speed up by 0.1 on the treadmill every mile. I went 7:30, 7:24, 7:19, 7:13, 7:08, 7:03 with a 2 mile warm up and cool down for 10 miles total.  You can start even a little slower (MP for example) and extend it out to 8-10 miles at tempo, but I think going beyond 6 is overkill unless you're approaching 3 hour marathon territory.

I would agree with Mark that unless you're running an exceptionally hilly marathon that the tempos will reap a much greater benefit than hills.  Even then, you'd be best served to just do your long runs on hilly terrain to prepare yourself.

Thanks, Jim, for the options.  Between yourself, Mark, Michele and Chris' post on page 20, I'm getting some great speed thoughts to peruse and apply.

It was quite eery to me [insert "X-Files" intro music here] that when I input into McMillan's calculator my desired marathon pace of 12 min/mile, that the 10K pace was 10:48.  The rabbit mile's time in yesterday's tempo run were ----
10:58, 10:48, & 10:45.  A foretelling or just numbers...you be the judge.   

Thanks again, y'all.

So, I was curious how my legs were going to be after yesterday's tempo run.  That run was pretty exciting for me.

Anywho, this was to be a 5 mile easy/recovery run.  Because traffic was lighter due to the Houston Texans' late game on Monday Night Football (it ended at 1 a.m. CT), I decided to run mile 17 of the new Houston marathon course to get a feel for the undulations.  Not bad, but my legs sure were dead.  They felt like I had done a moderate CrossFit box jump WOD.  There was no pain, but there was no fire either.

I'm sure as the weeks go by, it'll get easier as my legs adapt, but I may need to rest the day after the tempo run, then combine an easy 5 miles with weight lifting on Wednesdays.

I ended up running 3 miles slower than the last 2 weeks long run pace.

3.15 miles, 46:46, 14:50 pace, avg HR 119, max HR 130

1. 14:36, 119 bpm
   
2. 14:48, 119 bpm
   
3. 15:02, 119 bpm
   

Tomorrow is weight day.  Thanks for your time.

Great run Doug.  I think you'll be amazed at your improvement if you can fit in a run like this once a week or so.  Just don't overdo it!  Let those legs have time to recover.

Not sure about your idea to turn on the Garmin Virtual Trainer though...I think it would be much more fun to run with your rabbit.

nkrichards wrote:Great run Doug.  I think you'll be amazed at your improvement if you can fit in a run like this once a week or so.  Just don't overdo it!  Let those legs have time to recover.

Not sure about your idea to turn on the Garmin Virtual Trainer though...I think it would be much more fun to run with your rabbit.

Hey, Nancy.  Thanks for typing your thoughts.  I wish I could be there all the time with that girl, but I don't know who she is.  It was a matter of happenstance.

This morning, I went to lift some weights, concentrating on upper body, especially on the arms including forearms, hands, fingers, and wrists.  Yeah, there are exercises to strengthen your finger muscles.  I also did 10 goblin squats with a 40 lb kettlebell to work my legs just a bit and to open up my hips a bit, too.  I opened with a 500m row and finished with a 1,000m row.

My blood ketone level was 1.2 today, up from "Lo" yesterday.  No running today.

Blood ketone level was 1.5 today, up from 1.2 yesterday.  Getting better at some of the combinations of protein and carbs to partner with fat.  Any BK level from 1.0 to 3.0 is considered optimum and is called nutritional ketosis.  It would be nice if I could figure out a 'counter attack' to some unintended, but eaten, carbs by eating X number of fat grams, in addition to the regular amount of fat grams I consume daily.  I ate some ice cream today is why and the BK level is sure to drop.

9 miles was on the schedule for today.  Tuesday was the last time I ran, in what became a recovery run of sorts after Monday's tempo run.  The temperature at the start was 74 degrees with a dewpoint of 73 plus a rare north wind that should dry out some of the air.

8.81 miles, 1:57:20, 13:19 pace, avg HR 134, max HR 154 during the last mile, 1st half pace 13:45, 2nd half pace 12:53.

1. 13:54, 127 bpm
   
2. 13:54, 126 bpm
   
3. 14:05, 124 bpm
   
4. 13:20, 134 bpm
   
5. 13:16, 135 bpm
   
6. 12:52, 140 bpm
   
7. 13:03, 138 bpm
   
8. 12:59, 142 bpm
   
9. 12:12 pace, 148 bpm
   

I guess I'm getting dependent on having a rabbit or even a running friend kick my speed up.  At the halfway point, I increased my speed to begin the 2nd half negative split, but I sped up more when a running friend and I caught up a bit on her final quarter mile.  From then on (see mile 6 time), I was faster.  For some reason, that visual picture speeds me up.  There was another person that slowly went past me, but I didn't match his speed because I didn't want to hinder Saturday's long run.  Thoughts appreciated.

As expected, the blood ketone level is 0.5 dropping a full point from yesterday.  I believe the relatively lighter protein value of having eggs and a little bacon for dinner kept the BK value from being lower.

No running today because I'm resting up for tomorrow's long run. 

On the humorous side, I am looking forward to running into the Houston FIT marathon training bunch, in the morning.  I'll be returning, as they're leaving, and we'll be sharing a sidewalk.  Some will be hogging the sidewalk, to when I'll yell "RUNNER UP" to get them back on their side.  It's always fun to watch them be startled.

Nice runs lately, Doug, and I'm particularly pleased with the average heart rate on that Thursday run.

I wouldn't worry about needing motivation to pick up the pace on these general aerobic runs. Keep them easy so you've got the juice -- and motivation -- to nail that tempo run. And I think your desire for a rabbit suggests that maybe, just maybe, you might be a wee bit competitive. That's not a bad thing, mind you, if you can work that tendency to your advantage.

Suggestion: Consider doing your tempo run someplace where you will definitely find other runners, even if it's on a local track.

Mark B wrote:Nice runs lately, Doug, and I'm particularly pleased with the average heart rate on that Thursday run.

I wouldn't worry about needing motivation to pick up the pace on these general aerobic runs. Keep them easy so you've got the juice -- and motivation -- to nail that tempo run. And I think your desire for a rabbit suggests that maybe, just maybe, you might be a wee bit competitive. That's not a bad thing, mind you, if you can work that tendency to your advantage.

Suggestion: Consider doing your tempo run someplace where you will definitely find other runners, even if it's on a local track.

Thanks for the thoughts.  I was going to type that I don't think competition is part of it.  In the light of the bigger picture, I would agree or maybe take off your 'wee'.  But closer to the here and now, I think it's more of finding out how long I can keep up at a pace at which I'm not used to training.

I almost firmly believe that I could run a full 10K at a 10:48 pace.  I did it for 4 miles with only minimal lactate reaction.  That would equate to a 6 or 7 minute PR.  I'm not interested in PR's.  I'm interested in being faster.

I agree with your suggestion because if I want to do a tempo run without driving, it's 3 miles to Memorial Park and 3 miles back.  That's a chunk of the total distance in a tempo.  And I have to watch out for traffic.  Virtual Trainer could work and work well, but traffic is still around.  Thanks, Mark.

This morning, my blood ketone level plummeted to "Lo" and this will be the first long run at a "Lo" level.  At first I was concerned, not enough to cancel the run, though.  It's an interesting situation to work through, today.

I remember that some of the runners whom follow Nutritional Ketosis that ran Western States were coached by Peter Attia to consume some carbs the night before and the morning of the WS.  I mention this as a little consolation that being "Lo" is not a run killer.

Today's long run is 20 miles.  It will be the 2nd 20 in this cycle, with the other one 2 weeks ago.  Last week was a 15.  It was 77 degrees at the start with a dewpoint of 72 and no wind.  It was really muggy.

To recap the prior two long runs:

• 31Aug - 19.93 miles, 14:28 pace, & 138 avg HR
  
• 6Sept - 14.9 miles, 13:44 pace, & 140 avg HR
  

The plan for this run was to not avoid any elevation changes, since I'm deleting hill work off the schedule in favor of tempo training.  Also was to start out faster, but still keeping my HR in the low 130's, which gets me in the 13's per mile, instead of being in the low 120's, which gets me 14's.  130 HR is 65% of HR max for me.  Additionally, I wanted to try a different shirt to see if I can stop the chafing.  I wore a sleeved shirt, instead of a singlet.

19.95 miles, 4:31:16, 13:35 pace, 142 avg HR, 167 Max HR during the last mile, 1st half pace 13:31, 2nd half pace 13:39.

1. 13:27, 125 bpm
   
2. 13:01, 133 bpm
   
3. 13:08, 133 bpm
   
4. 13:27, 135 bpm
   
5. 13:32, 134 bpm
   
6. 13:43, 135 bpm
   
7. 13:57, 134 bpm
   
8. 13:22, 134 bpm
   
9. 13:42, 139 bpm
   
10. 13:57, 140 bpm
    
11. 13:30, 142 bpm
    
12. 13:33, 148 bpm
    
13. 13:13, 153 bpm
    
14. 13:43, 153 bpm
    
15. 13:51, 153 bpm
    
16. 13:48, 157 bpm
    
17. 13:16, 141 bpm
    
18. 13:55, 155 bpm
    
19. 14:04, 155 bpm
    
20. 13:38 pace, 150 bpm
    

I started feeling some muscle discomfort when I hit the non-flat part of the course around mile 9, and on the return, except the return was more discomfort in the hamstring, piriformis and calves.  It was never a sharp pain, but more akin to more discomfort than on Monday's tempo run.  I never cramped  , I never chafed  , and I never felt I was out of energy, except for the discomfort.

One thing I failed to mention last week and I did it again today was that I didn't eat anything before the run.  Next week, I'm going to eat something prior to the run just to see what happens.  I did consume 2 grams of salt before the run and carried 2 S!Caps that were consumed at miles 11 and 15.  I lost 6 pounds during the run and at this time, I have no tightness or pain.

I can't say that running two 20's two weeks apart has hurt my training.  Thanks for reading.

That's a nice improvement in your long run pace with only a slight increase in heart rate.  I'm impressed that you don't have any muscle soreness...not the case for me!