One last 20 miler...yes or no

After about four solid months of training, I’m four weeks
out from the Philadelphia Marathon. Unfortunately, the flip side to four good
months is that all those miles have finally started to take a toll on my knee,
which has been operated on three times (the last time being August of 2010).

The training cycle has been a good one and I think I’m in
good shape to hit my goal of 3:25, which is BQ-5 minutes. I’m definitely faster
than I was at the same point in training for Philly 2009, where I PR’d with a
3:29:35 and my first BQ.


Here’s my dilemma…I’ve done long runs of two 18 milers and
one 20 miler, with significant miles at or faster than MP on the 20 and one of
the 18 milers. I also ran a HM as a marathon training run. The last long run
was an 18 miler with 9 at MP a week and a half ago, which translates to 6 weeks
from the marathon.


I’m scheduled for my last 20 this coming weekend. With my
knee pretty painful, and a little inflamed, I’m wondering if I’d be better off
not doing such a long run. My only fear is that too much time would have
elapsed between my long runs and the marathon. On the other hand, since that
last 18-miler, the knee has gotten significantly worse, and I’m pretty sure
another 20 would be tough on it.


So my question is just how big of deal is it if I don’t do
this last long run. I’m thinking that perhaps I’d do a moderate run this
weekend, and than maybe do a pretty long run of about 15 two weeks before the
marathon.


I’d love some input, especially about whether or not skipping
this last 20 is likely to cost me in terms of a finishing time.

Bail on it, imo. If you have had such a good training cycle and feel ready to go, I don't think the additional 20 miler would add much. Given your knee problems, the added 20 miler could make things much worse. It sounds like your legs need the rest now.

Seth, I think you must trust your months of training as well as your feeling on this one last 20 miles. You think it is not good now, it will not be good. As to training, maybe you can arrange a little more mid distances instead?

Your question pretty much answers itself. Don't do it. Run frequent mid-distances instead, and if it gets aggravated, back off more.

Michael Enright wrote:Your question pretty much answers itself. Don't do it. Run frequent mid-distances instead, and if it gets aggravated, back off more.

+1

You last long run might help out your run a little bit, but if and when you add further damage to your knee, you will lose performance. You are tough and we know you could do the run if you needed to, but since things are going well and you have a track record for injuries, why risk it? Just my 2 cents....

"No single run in a training cycle matters... except the one that leads to injury."
-Mr MattM

There is absolutely no reason to do another 20 when you are already feeling your knee. Your race will reflect the months of training, not the final weeks.

"It's far easier to screw up your race in the final weeks than it is to improve it."
-Mr MattM

I agree. Back off, let your knee heal. Please please get better before your race!

I pretty much knew which way the responses would go, but I more than anything, I think I was looking for reassurance that I've put in enough quality miles to so that missing this last long run won't be that consequential.
I appreciate all your thoughts. I'll plan on doing about 12 this coming weekend, and than if the knee feels good, I'll do somewhere between 12 and 15 with two weeks left, than taper.
Thanks!

Did you forget you ran sub 3:30 in philly on less mileage. Skip the 20.

I think you got your answer, Seth. DO.NOT.RUN.ANOTHER.20.

+1

Allright, everyone is saying the same thing which is to skip the 20 and I'll agree but I will throw in one thing to consider. The main reason to do that last 20 is simply to get a confidence boost late in the training that you are ready. That run isn't going to happen and that's the right call but I'd suggest designing some kind of confidence boosting workout 20 to 10 days out from the race. Nothing that tweaks the knee but something that has you saying "hell yeah, I'm ready"

10 x 800 at 3:20 each? You could do that in your sleep, speedy.

A 10 mile progression with the last 5 below goal MP tempo style?

I'd just like to see you throw in some workout during the last 3 weeks which doesn't crush the legs for 2.5+ hours like another 20 but does get you rocking and rolling and feeling like you are more than ready for race day.

Do NOTHING to jeopardize the knee. Your confidence comes from all of the work you have already put in to the training. Confidence comes from those days you laced up and ran when you were tired and sore... the days you really didn't want to run but did anyway... the days when it was hot, cold, rainy, windy, etc... knowing you put in the miles, the sacrifices, consistently... that will pay off on race day. RACES ARE BUILT ON CYCLES NOT RUNS!!!!

You don't need any kind of 'test' with a sore knee that has had multiple operations. Save it for race day. On race day, forget the knee and run like there's no tomorrow. Just my opinion.

"No single run in a training cycle matters... except the one that leads to injury."
-Mr MattM

"It's far easier to screw up your race in the final weeks than it is to improve it."
-Mr MattM

I agree 20 is a confidence builder but there are other ways outside of running to build your confidence. Surround yourself with like minded people. Speak to us on this forum. Meditate. Visualize. etc.

I think 10x800 in 3:20 is way risky with a issues with your leg.

I agree with Chris that a big part of my thinking in doing a last 20 miler is for the confidence boost it will provide, as opposed to any great physiological difference it will make. Unfortunately, I don't think any other type of workout will provide that psychological boost, so I'm inclined to agree with Matt that it's not worth risking further injury. That said, if the leg feels good in a week and a half (two weeks out), I'll do a moderate long run with some faster miles built in before officially starting taper, although I kind of feel like I've already started.
I saw the orthopedist last night (btw-his name is Jordan Metzl, and soon you can look for an online video series on strengthening that he just completed for Runners World). He put me on a pretty strong anti-inflammatory for a week. He also agreed with everyone that another 20 would be foolish and unnecessary at this point.
After the marathon, he wants to give me an injection of Euflexxa, which is pretty much a joint lubricant that should ease the pain caused by whatever osteoarthritis I already have. I had never heard of it before, but I'll be looking into it.

I disagree that a veteran like you need confidence boost. After all, you ran Boston before, right?

Jerry wrote:I disagree that a veteran like you need confidence boost. After all, you ran Boston before, right?

...and if you recall how that went you'll know exactly why I'm looking for the confidence boost.

For a confidence boost before a marathon, I usually look at my whole training long from the 4-5 previous months, tell myself all the running I did and then from there you can only do your best and hope for good health on race day, good weather, good sleep and all that. I've had to cut 20s back for knees or tummy trouble or anything else and you just do what you can do on race day. I would not do anything hard now, just heal your knee.

I've arrived at the start line of a marathon injured before and using Biofreeze and ibuprofen throughout the race was not fun and by the finish I was downright miserable. But in the 4 weeks before I was being stupid and wanted to prove that I could still run after injuring myself at the marathon 4 weeks previous (this was 3 yrs ago, I'm older and wiser now).

Just take care of yourself and take it easy till race day if that's what your knee needs.

Agree with NO, you can start the taper early with no ill effects. Get to the start fresh not frazzled. I'd go only 12-14, if that. Also, why do 15 miles 2 weeks out, your knee sounds bad, let it heal by backing off the mileage or even hitting an elliptical or something? Judge by how the knee responds, relax and good luck! Oh and OUCH on the lube job. Do you get an oil change along with that? I picture the Tin Man and an oil can right now.

Thanks Julie and Steve...even though the knee is already feeling a lot better after two doses of the the anti-inflammatory, weekend runs in the 12-15 range will most likely be all I'll do.
Incidentally, here's link for Euflexxa, the injection he plans on giving me after Philly:

http://www.euflexxa.com/what-is-euflexxa

Pool running, cycling, elliptical? Options? Wise quotes from Matt - have to remember the last one - sort of like Confucius say....

Seth, forget the 20 miler, maybe you should do a 24 miler instead? ha ha

Seth Harrison wrote:Thanks Julie and Steve...even though the knee is already feeling a lot better after two doses of the the anti-inflammatory, weekend runs in the 12-15 range will most likely be all I'll do.
Incidentally, here's link for Euflexxa, the injection he plans on giving me after Philly:

[url=http://www.euflexxa.com/what-is-euflexxa

http://www.euflexxa.com/what-is-euflexxa[/quote[/url]]

Seth, do you know how funny the above sounds to a non-runner? Only 12-15... I think it is the right decision to limit the run and not try to go for the 20.

You answered your own question in the first paragraph. NO 20 miler.

I appreciate all the input everyone. With an early winter storm on tap for tomorrow, I did the long run today. I opted for a 15 miler with 10 miles between 5 and 10 seconds faster than MP, which while not keeping me on my feet for as long as a 20 miler would have, was still a good workout three weeks before the marathon. It was a very strong run, and the knee felt solid. Thanks again for all the good advice.