Stalking 50

mul21 wrote:

Mark B wrote:

mul21 wrote:I say you find a nice flat marathon in about a month and take advantage of all this endurance you've built up to drop the hammer on it.....but that's just me, and we all know how insane I think it is to subject yourself to more than 26.2 at a time!

Well, I have been wondering what this additional endurance base and hill work would mean in a road marathon... except that I've done absolutely ZERO running at what I'd consider an MP level of effort. So dropping the hammer in a marathon is actually a more scary prospect that cruising through an ultra. Crazy, huh?

Well, just for reference, I'd look at Matt M's performance in the heat in Chicago in 2010 after not hardly running any miles faster than 8:00 pace and then going sub 3:00. It's possible without a doubt.

Yes, speed is possible. Though... about seeing the phrase "sub 3:00" in any post even remotely related to me?

T Miller wrote:

Mark B wrote:

mul21 wrote:I say you find a nice flat marathon in about a month and take advantage of all this endurance you've built up to drop the hammer on it.....but that's just me, and we all know how insane I think it is to subject yourself to more than 26.2 at a time!

Well, I have been wondering what this additional endurance base and hill work would mean in a road marathon... except that I've done absolutely ZERO running at what I'd consider an MP level of effort. So dropping the hammer in a marathon is actually a more scary prospect that cruising through an ultra. Crazy, huh?

That's the way I feel too. I could probably get myself ready to race a marathon in 6 weeks or so, though.

Yup. My brother-in-law will be running his first marathon in December at CIM, and he's sort of wondering if I'm going to do it, too. I have to admit, it's tempting, though I have this sneaking suspicion he's going to be faster than me.

Mike MacLellan wrote:Do the 50-miler.

Hm. No hesitation there. One benefit of White River is that I'd probably get a chance to get a fleeting glimpse of the ultra elite, since that event tends to attract them like ultrarunners to nut butters.

Michele "1L" Keane wrote:Go for the 50 miler - but then again, i'd run the 50k and save the 50 miler for spring.

See, that's the cautious thing. And it makes a lot of sense... except that there's nothing sensible about ultras, is there?

Mark B wrote:

Mike MacLellan wrote:Do the 50-miler.

Hm. No hesitation there. One benefit of White River is that I'd probably get a chance to get a fleeting glimpse of the ultra elite, since that event tends to attract them like ultrarunners to nut butters.

Haha, I didn't feel the need to elaborate

But, just to be fair and explain myself... A 50k is a glorified trail marathon. You can train for a marathon and run a 50k. A 50-miler, on the other hand, is something completely different. It's a helluva lot more than running.

Hill Run: 6.4 miles (842 feet of climbing, same amount of descent)

Weather: Overcast, cool. 50 degrees. Gear: Altra Instincts, shorts, long-sleeved T. Fuel: Grape Nuts snack before. Carried handheld with nuun during.

I've decided that this will be a step-back week, but I still wanted to get another hill run in this week. So I headed out for a six-mile out-and-back into the hills north of my house. I was able to crest most of the hills without getting above my uphill running HR limit of 143 - or, at least, being able to rein it back in when I overdid it.

It puzzles me a little, because I'm able to ease up hills on pavement that I have not been able to run up on the trails. Not entirely sure why, though of course it's impossible to compare the grade of the slopes - the trails may be steeper than I think. (I know I had a couple of 'holy crap!' moments on Monday...)

I was most worried about the downhills - my joints are a little creaky still - but I think I did a pretty good job easing down the with minimum impact. I did end up sailing downhill at a sub-8 pace for a while, though.

I also took advantage of this shorter to run to experiment with my handheld and a new waistpack. I prefer not carrying anything in my hands, and I need a pack for long unsupported runs in the boonies, but I'm thinking that a lighter setup will be better for race day -- so I'd better get used to it.

I'll take full rest day tomorrow, then run a relatively short back-to-back on Sunday and Monday. Whether I allow myself to also make them easy is yet to be determined...

Walked first and last 5 minutes. Average HR for entire run: 134

Mike MacLellan wrote:

Mark B wrote:

Mike MacLellan wrote:Do the 50-miler.

Hm. No hesitation there. One benefit of White River is that I'd probably get a chance to get a fleeting glimpse of the ultra elite, since that event tends to attract them like ultrarunners to nut butters.

Haha, I didn't feel the need to elaborate

But, just to be fair and explain myself... A 50k is a glorified trail marathon. You can train for a marathon and run a 50k. A 50-miler, on the other hand, is something completely different. It's a helluva lot more than running.

That's a fair point, except that a trail marathon (Tecumseh) totally kicked my ass a few years ago. (Forget about that? Read my race report again.) I've learned the hard way to not take anything for granted.

That said, there is something about the 50-mile distance. It's audacious without being insane.

And just to add to the voices...

I sent a note to a talented and up-and-coming ultra runner I know with Pacific Northwest roots earlier today. I asked for his take on the two races, and he said he highly recommended the SOB 50k. D'oh! So much for unanimity.

He didn't say anything bad about White River, but he said he's run the SOB course himself, that it was a beautiful route and didn't have that much climbing in it (though this guy ran Leadville, so you know his perspective on what is and isn't a climb might just be skewed).

Hm... Well, luckily, I don't have to decide immediately.

Low HR Run: 6.3 miles

Weather: Mostly cloudy, cool. 41 degrees. Gear: Altra Instincts, shorts, long-sleeved T, jacket, hat, gloves (stowed). Fuel: Grape Nuts and coffee (urp!), carried water in handheld.

For a somewhat crappy run, this turned out pretty well. I woke up creaky, nearly had a spasm stretching, and I had acid reflux and other gut issues on the run. Most definitely not time to push my luck. So I focused on running smooth and as relaxed as possible.

Despite the distractions, I couldn't help but notice that my HR was holding very steady as I ran. My form felt pretty good - sort of like how things click at faster speeds, except at a slower pace - and while I wasn't running particularly fast, I didn't have much fall-off in pace.

When I downloaded my Garmin, I was pleasantly surprised to see just how even my effort level was, and that it took only three minutes of walking cool-down for my HR to fall below 100. I'll take it.

Here's the HR chart. Nice when it doesn't look like a saw blade.


Ignore that spike at first. I was fighting a spastic HR strap. One downside of running when its 41 - it takes a while to break a sweat.

Walked first and last 5 minutes. Average HR for entire run: 130

So, I picked a heck of a time to be climbing a mountain. Uggh. My heart goes out to those in Boston, and to their family and friends.

Here's my log entry, and a topo map and elevation profile. I'll post some pretty trail photos later on, and a video, for some much needed comic relief.

---
Trail Run: About 10 miles

Weather: Spring. Some sun, clouds, rain, wind... even snow! Gear: Altra Superiors, shorts, T, jacket, hat, gloves (glad I had them with me). Fuel: Large breakfast with coffee. One PickyBar once I summited Hamilton Mountain. Drank about 32 ounces nuun. S-Cap before and on every hour.

This is a stepback week for me, but I still wanted to get onto the trails, if only to get back on rocks and make sure I don't get spooked by them after last Monday's problems. I went up into the Columbia River Gorge to Beacon Rock State Park with plans to climb Hamilton Mountain, a 2,400-foot peak with spectacular (if vertigo-inducing) views of the Columbia River.

I jogged and hiked up, trying to not push it too hard. I got rained on a bit and found that my Altras did a pretty good job on all but the rockiest sections. Once I hit the summit of Hamilton Mountain, I looked east and noticed a big rainstorm coming in. I dug out my hat and gloves and headed toward it... only to end up running in wind and blowing snow on an exposed ridgeline. Did NOT expect that. I hustled into the forest, which gave me some cover, and I gave myself permission to open it up a little. It was cool. I could feel the power in my legs. Nice.

I also took advantage of some steep, rocky downhills to experiment with landing. I found that by concentrating on keeping my feet moving quickly (fast up), it reduced the sense of jarring impact. Good to know. I put it to greater use on a nice section of gravel road, when I let go and was flying downhill with paces in the 6s and 7s.

I goofed taking photos at one point and forgot to restart my Garmin, so I lost a section of the run... but I think I came close enough to 10 miles total to count it.

Average HR for entire run: 141

Chart and profile:

Isn't it nice to know that when you need some speed, your body can deliver and enjoy it? But take 5 penalty laps for excessive heart rate.

ounce wrote:Isn't it nice to know that when you need some speed, your body can deliver and enjoy it? But take 5 penalty laps for excessive heart rate.

Sir, yes sir! May I have more, please?

Okay, so time for the comic relief.



And the scenics:



Heading up Hamilton Mountain, early on. You can get a view of the Oregon side of the Columbia River Gorge through the trees.



A wet-and-rocky stretch of trail, with some interesting slope stabilization. Reminded me of Lincoln Logs.



Farther up, you can see how this trail might not be good for people who are prone to vertigo.

Going up it wasn't a problem. I think I might have gotten nervous doing down this route. I took a different way back.



If you look closely, you can see a creek far below.. and a rainbow.



Cool rock formation (okay, cliff) on the south side of Hamilton Mountain



Some guy.



Waaay down there you can see Bonneville Dam and the Columbia River.



Still higher, lots of exposed switchbacks. Beacon Rock is that little nub down by the river. Oh, that little nub is 848 feet tall.



Do NOT miss the turn here, trust me. Oh, notice how the trail does double duty as a streambed.



Some yutz stole the sign that says this is the top of Hamilton Mountain, elevation 2,445 feet. Kinda like the multilingual celebratory graffiti, though.



Did not see this weather coming as I was working my way up the west side of the mountain... D'oh!



Moments after I took this photo, it started snowing. Sideways. I made a break for the forest, where I took the video above. What I didn't say on the video was that my left arm (the side that was hit by the blowing snow) was pretty much numb. Brr.

I hope you count your blessings every single day for the ability to run in such a gorgeous area! Really awesome! As far as snow....yeah, that must have been a surprise.
Had a similar situation when I was in Utah-Zionsville National park and was hiking up to the Angels (something or other..quite a climb across the top of a ridge) and it was about 80 degrees at the bottom. Wet snow raining down at the top, very wet, hard to hike. Yikes.
Is that a trail that you would go barefoot on?

dot520 wrote:I hope you count your blessings every single day for the ability to run in such a gorgeous area! Really awesome! As far as snow....yeah, that must have been a surprise.
Had a similar situation when I was in Utah-Zionsville National park and was hiking up to the Angels (something or other..quite a climb across the top of a ridge) and it was about 80 degrees at the bottom. Wet snow raining down at the top, very wet, hard to hike. Yikes.
Is that a trail that you would go barefoot on?

Hi Dot! I must confess that I am lucky to have so many great options so close at hand. Though that trail up on Hamilton Mountain is far too rocky for barefoot running - at least for me. It might be possible, but it'd challenge all but the most proficient, I suspect. I'm still just learning.

I've been in Zion before, and it's gorgeous. The whole huge temperature swing is crazy, but apparently not so uncommon in that part of the world. That's why it's always good to be prepared. I've even started packing along some emergency gear (space blanket, small knife, extra food) when I go on these solo jaunts.

Walk: 4 miles

Weather: Sunny, 54

Took a lunchtime walk along the Columbia River at lunch. It was sunny and cool, but warm enough to go without a jacket. No real aches and pains from all the climbing/descent yesterday, which is a good sign.

That's the place Jerry should be running. I grew up in small mountain area and regretfully only occasionally I went for a run there myself. Now I am stuck in Texas.

Jerry wrote:That's the place Jerry should be running. I grew up in small mountain area and regretfully only occasionally I went for a run there myself. Now I am stuck in Texas.

Ooo. That's too bad, Jerry. Well, you could always retire in the Rocky Mountains.

Barefoot Run: 4.1 miles

Weather: Sunny, mild. 52 degrees. Gear: Shorts, T. Fuel: Nada.

I had a school function this morning (Alec received a certificate for his first 4.0 report card. Woot!), so I decided to see if I could sneak in a barefoot run instead of a walk during lunchtime at work. And being that Wednesday is barefoot day, I did it without shoes.

It went pretty well -- it's always fun when it feels like you're getting away with something -- but I noticed my HR was riding a lot higher than normal. Hm, that's weird, I thought. Until I looked at my pace. Oh. I was in the 9s. Well, then.

I tried to slow down. Couldn't. Weird. My legs wanted to go-go-go.

Hm. Well, fine. I let my legs do what they wanted. When I finished two miles, I decided to up the ante a little and see what happened when I let my HR start to rise even higher... getting closer to what used to be my old "lactate threshold heart rate." What happened is that I went faster. A lot faster. In fact, I was cruising well into the sub-8s. And it felt easy.

Well, that's interesting. I held it at a HR of about 162 - what I've used as a marathon pace heart rate - and watched my speed vary from a pace in the mid-7s to just a hair over 8/mi until I got closer to the end of Mile 3 and decided to try pushing it a little harder, and got down to about a 7:18/mi pace before cutting it back at the end of the mile, with my HR climbing to 168. (Interesting how pushing just a little harder pushed my HR out of the steady state and upward.)

The fact that the pace for a BQ at my "new" age group would be right about the speed I was going is entirely coincidental, honest!

I slowed for the fourth mile - it took a quarter mile to get my HR back down to a more reasonable level - but I still ended up at an elevated HR and a pace at just about 10/mi for that last bit.



All barefoot.

Part of my soles were a little tattered -- I think I was pushing off when I was going faster -- but not horribly so. So all in all, a fun diversion from work. And a solid workout.

I'll be good tomorrow. Promise.

Average HR for entire run: 145

Low HR Run: 6.27 miles

Weather: Mostly cloudy, cool. 50 degrees. Gear: Altra Instincts, shorts, T, jacket. Fuel: None. Carried water in handheld.

After my uptempo barefoot run yesterday, I figured it was time for an extra-easy low HR run. (And besides, I promised!)

I got my HR down into the upper 50s before I started, which is pretty good, and kept it at or below my target for the whole run. I noted my speed (in the 10s) but didn't dwell on it. I paid more attention for form, with some success. I didn't pause at my 3-mile turnaround point, as I often do, to keep the stimulus as even as possible. My HR fell back below 100 only a couple of minutes into my cool-down walk.

Walked first and last 5 or so. Average HR for entire run: 130

I'm telling you, a fast marathon would be right in your wheel house at this point. All those low HR miles and hills? DO IT!

Man, those pictures are awesome. So jealous.

mul21 wrote:I'm telling you, a fast marathon would be right in your wheel house at this point. All those low HR miles and hills? DO IT!

Well "fast" is a relative term, of course. I think a PR attempt would be too hard on my body while getting ready for my first ultra. But if I can manage to keep it up, who knows? I'd be lying if I said I wasn't at least slightly intrigued. The irony is that I have two 26-mile and two 28-mile runs planned as I get ready for this 50.

healdgator wrote:Man, those pictures are awesome. So jealous.

Thanks! But I think more than a few people would be jealous of your commuting distance to the Magic Kingdom. Not to mention the adventure of running in a place where a sinkhole could open any moment, and be immediately occupied by a gator.

Hill Run: 8.27 miles

Weather: Wet. Overcast, showers, some wind. 51 degrees. Gear: Altra Instincts, shorts, T, jacket, hat. Fuel: Nothing before (other than breakfast). Carried nuun in handheld, 1 s-cap before.

Not the easiest run I've had lately. I took my hilly 8-mile road route, and I was feeling it pretty quickly. I was, in fact, pretty sore by the time I got home. Not just in the ankles from all the steep downhills, but also in the thighs. Interesting, but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised after my little mountain climb on Monday and impromptu tempo session (barefoot) on Wednesday.

Tomorrow's a rest day. I think I'm ready for it.

Walked first and last 5. Average HR for entire run: 132 (Yes, despite chugging up hill and having to walk a few times, I managed to keep my average HR low. I was a little surprised when I downloaded my Garmin.)

Okay, time for an update on what I hope to do this summer.

I sent the RD for the Mount Hood 50 another email, after seeing not the slightest change in the wait list. I haven't heard back yet.

I spent a few hours going rough race reports for the White River 50-mile Endurance Run and got the bejabbers scared out of me. Sure, it's only two hills... but each hill is really a mountain, with 3,800 feet of climbing on the first one, and about as much climbing on the second. Much more macho guys than I report being brought to their quaking knees on that course. And those are the ones who managed to finish!

I also read about the SOB 50K. An ultra-running friend says it doesn't have much elevation change, but this guy ran Leadville and trains on the Tecumseh Trail, so his reliability is suspect at best. Reports say the course is pretty but also very challenging... and at a starting altitude of 7,100 feet or so. Somewhat higher than where I run. Camping options are also few.

So.... I'm still unsure what I'm going to do. For now, I'll post up the elevation charts so y'all can compare what I'm talking about.



This is the Mount Hood 50. The first half is handled pretty easily by most runners. Struggling happens in the second half. Understandably. It's still my preference.



This is the White River 50. Looks reasonable, not too steep, until you see how many miles you're climbing. It's one of those "Will this #$@%! climb EVER end?" sort of experiences. (Click here to read a hysterically funny - and profane - race report.)



Lastly, here's the SOB 50K. Yeah. Not much climbing at all! Riigghht.

So there you have it. I'm getting closer to the point to where I'm going to have to decide, because I need to figure out exactly how and when to transition from my "build" to my "peak" phase.