This is the year...continued...

Schuey wrote:

Nick Morris wrote:

Kenny B. wrote:Nice pace run done at 80% of max is awfully low. Assuming you have the endurance you should be able to meet that goal for sure if not surpass it. I tend to run pace runs more in the 80-85% so I think you have some cushion there on the HR.

I was excited that my HR was only 148 and you are probably right that I am ahead of my goals right now, but my plan is to just meet my goals this year and may try to stretch next year...

I don't know buddy if you are running a 6:47 pace at 80% HRmax that is a great sign. I would also take it that since the 6:47 is the avg. pace you warmed up and ran actually faster then the 6:47 to avg. that. If you don't mind me asking how many miles during this run were suppose be MP miles and what paces were they done at?

I only ask cause I know that when I do pace runs at a certain pace faster then my goal MP, it gives me a good idea if I can meet my goal on race day.

Yes, 6:47 is the average over 9.27 miles. This may sound strange, but I really don't warm up. I do some pre-run stretching and maybe a few strides, but I just get right into it. My first mile is normally a little slower than the rest of the run (10-15 seconds). As far as cool down goes, I start shutting it down with bout 1/4 mile left in the run. Then I will walk for about 2-5 minutes until my heart rate gets back down into the 80s to low 90s. Then I do some post run stretching and it's on to recovery fuel. FYI...On race day, I do try to get in 1-2 miles of warm up...

As far as today's run my splits were:

Distance	Avg Pace
1	6:49
1	6:45
1	6:43
1	6:37
1	6:42
1	6:49
1	6:53
1	6:46
1	6:46
0.27	6:59
9.27	6:47

Schuey wrote:Fair enough I can relate to that. I think going in with the sub 3:05 goal is a good one but if you are feeling good in the later stages I won't shy away from trying to pick-up the pace and see how it feels. Sure today was just one run but if you ask me it looks like today might have been one of those breakthrough runs for you. Just keep that in mind buddy. Oh wait I shouldn't say that to you, you are the captain of the other team.

No wonder you want me to go for it You want me to crash and burn so your team benefits.

Trust me, sub 3:05 would be a huge improvement over my 3:39 PR

Personally I feel MP is over rated. Two purposes for MP, right?

1. Let our bodies to memorize the pace.
   
2. Let our bodies to run on the particular pace so that we run the particular pace more efficiently.
   

The problem is with the mileage we run, well you run these days, the body is somewhat fatigued, far different from the body at the race start. So what do we learn from the MP?

1. Memorize the wrong effort.
   
2. Again, run more efficiently at a wrong effort, which translates to wrong pace in the race day.
   

Now we factor in the weather, we can't possibly run MP now.

Heehee.

My answer?

My relaxed and steady. I believe if I can run steady and relaxed at 7:20 and if I have sub 3, I will be able to run good 6:50 for a sub 3 in race day.

Nick, I am not saying your MP run is wrong. Great workout, btw. But I wouldn't categorize it as a MP to give my mind the wrong signal. But again, I would be happy to just get up at 6 and nail a steady 7:10 pace.

Then of cause, in reality, I get up a 9:30am Saturday and it is already too hot outside. Rest day.

I will come back to read more about your overall mileage. The 9 miles is really nice. You sure you just want a 3:05?

Jerry wrote:Personally I feel MP is over rated. Two purposes for MP, right?

1. Let our bodies to memorize the pace.
   
2. Let our bodies to run on the particular pace so that we run the particular pace more efficiently.
   

The problem is with the mileage we run, well you run these days, the body is somewhat fatigued, far different from the body at the race start. So what do we learn from the MP?

1. Memorize the wrong effort.
   
2. Again, run more efficiently at a wrong effort, which translates to wrong pace in the race day.
   

Now we factor in the weather, we can't possibly run MP now.

Heehee.

My answer?

My relaxed and steady. I believe if I can run steady and relaxed at 7:20 and if I have sub 3, I will be able to run good 6:50 for a sub 3 in race day.

Nick, I am not saying your MP run is wrong. Great workout, btw. But I wouldn't categorize it as a MP to give my mind the wrong signal. But again, I would be happy to just get up at 6 and nail a steady 7:10 pace.

Then of cause, in reality, I get up a 9:30am Saturday and it is already too hot outside. Rest day.

I will come back to read more about your overall mileage. The 9 miles is really nice. You sure you just want a 3:05?

Nick I will comment more on what you wrote but I want to touch a little on what Jerry wrote.

Ok Jerry, I can see were you can feel MP is over rated. I myself can go either way with them. As you have noticed over the years I don't do a whole lot of MP runs but I do try to do some.

I would agree with you that by doing them that we are:

1. Letting our bodies memorize the pace.

Which is a good thing but were the problem comes in is and Matt M touched on this a while back that we don't really know what MP is before a race. And I agree with him that we truly don't know what our MP is until we run it on race day. By doing them it does give a sense of what we might be able to do and were our fitness is at a given point.

With that being said I do believe there is some importance to them for different runners. The main one is building one's confidence. So yes as you can see for some these runs can be a very important building block to there training which you did touch on.

Now wether one is doing a MP or not or running very high mileage I would tend to have a different view point then you on the fatigued factor. I find it a plus to be able to run MP or a little faster then MP on tired legs. Why? For one reason and that reason would be to have a good sense of what it will feel like to be running MP on tired legs.

I truly believe that for some it is a gut test and it will help them dig deep when things get tough in the late stages. Also if one knows they can and have done it on a training run they can now do it on race day. To me if you are running a 20 mile run at the end of a week were you already ran 40 or more miles that 20 with lets say 6 to 12 miles at MP is going to feel like running 26.2 and give one a good idea of what race day will be like.

So I don't think one will be memorizing the wrong effort. Sure it is different then what you want to do at the start but I also believe that is were your race day strategy comes into play. One has to have a sound plan and believe and stick with the plan but also at the same time be able to think quick on their feet and change plans if needed to fit the day.


these days I'm more like you that I don't do to many MP runs because I feel I have a good sense of what it is going to be like on race day and I have been there and done it. So when the time comes for that gut check I feel I will rise to the task. So I will do a lot more steady long runs but will also throw in the long Fartlek. I also feel I can get away with this do to the fact of trying to do more Tempo runs. Then again I also believe that my higher volume has help push my aerobic fitness to a new level and I do believe the marathon is an aerobic event but with a need to do LT workouts to also help one to run at a faster pace for longer periods.

So don't get me wrong I know what you are saying and you make some good points. But I do believe for were Nick is at as a runner these MP runs are not only good but should be done. It's all about the learning curve right??

Sorry for the hijack Nick and long post.

No worries...this is great discussion!!

7/17 -

18 mile LSD

I was up and out of bed this morning at 4:07am and out the door by 5:15am. The temp was already sitting at 75 degrees and the sun wasn't even up yet. I had decided to implement a 3 and 6 rule for today's run. Liquids every 3 miles and fuel every 6. I ended up consuming about 80oz of liquids. It must have worked as I felt very hydrated when I finished. The entire run was fairly smooth. I started our slow and comfortable and really got into a rhythm. This is the longest that I have ran since last fall, so it was nice to get the miles and time on my legs. I started feeling it a little around the 2 hour mark, even though the splits may not show it. Final stats 18.12 miles at a 7:49 pace (see splits below). My average HR was at 139 (75% of max)!!! I thought for sure that with the temps and humidity it would be higher than that.

Final week 7 totals: 50.30 miles

Next week is going to be a challenge. For starters I am adding more mileage to my weekly total. I should be somewhere around the middle 50s or so. And second I am traveling all week for work. Monday and Tuesday I will be in High Point, NC. I already have a couple of trails picked out to do my runs on. Tuesday night I fly from Greensboro to Philadelphia, where I will be until Friday... Then I fly back home on Friday. I am not sure where I am going to run in Philly yet. I guess I will cross that bridge when I get there. Anotherthing that worries me about traveling is that my diet is going to consist of things that I normally do not eat. Airportr food is not the greatest and I normally do not eat out. So, I am hoping not to lose too much momentum on the weight loss situation. Anyways...Good luck to everyone that has to run this next week in the high heat!!!

Split	Time	Distance	Avg Pace	Avg HR
1	0:08:03	1	8:03	124
2	0:07:56	1	7:56	133
3	0:07:45	1	7:45	135
4	0:07:47	1	7:47	134
5	0:07:53	1	7:53	138
6	0:07:52	1	7:52	140
7	0:07:48	1	7:48	134
8	0:07:46	1	7:46	139
9	0:07:46	1	7:46	143
10	0:07:46	1	7:46	140
11	0:07:40	1	7:40	139
12	0:07:52	1	7:52	138
13	0:07:47	1	7:47	140
14	0:07:43	1	7:43	145
15	0:07:52	1	7:52	145
16	0:07:42	1	7:42	146
17	0:07:44	1	7:44	147
18	0:07:50	1	7:50	147
19	0:00:58	0.12	8:15	149
Summary	2:21:37	18.12	7:49	139

Superb long run very consistent with little HR drift only at end which is expected.

Philly you can run on Kelley Drive by the museum area I would say the nicest place in the city.

Kenny B. wrote:Superb long run very consistent with little HR drift only at end which is expected.

Philly you can run on Kelley Drive by the museum area I would say the nicest place in the city.

Isn't that by the row houses??

Kenny and Scott C sent me to that path along the river in Philly and it was great. I was staying near Rittenhouse Square, so I jumped onto Broad St, went up by the Art Museum and then picked up the path behind there. When I came back, I past the ARt museum and took an exit off the pathway to the left that was maybe Arch St? and then followed it up a small hill back to Broad and home. The path was filled with runners and bikers in the early morning which was quite nice.

As for Greensboro, if you are near the "downtown" there is a short path around the Battlefield Green and another flat, gravel trail around there as well.

Michele "1L" Keane wrote:Kenny and Scott C sent me to that path along the river in Philly and it was great. I was staying near Rittenhouse Square, so I jumped onto Broad St, went up by the Art Museum and then picked up the path behind there. When I came back, I past the ARt museum and took an exit off the pathway to the left that was maybe Arch St? and then followed it up a small hill back to Broad and home. The path was filled with runners and bikers in the early morning which was quite nice.

As for Greensboro, if you are near the "downtown" there is a short path around the Battlefield Green and another flat, gravel trail around there as well.

Thanks for the Philly advice...I have a few trails that connedt High Point to Greensboro that I am going to try out.

That was an awesome looking long run - really consistent splits. Do you do that by feel or are you staring at your Garmin? I can't seem to ever be that consistent unless I'm focused on a watch...

awesome long run! That's about how the weather is here, too, 80s at night, 110 in the day.

One of these weeks it'll cool down and we'll all feel faster.

John Kilpatrick wrote:That was an awesome looking long run - really consistent splits. Do you do that by feel or are you staring at your Garmin? I can't seem to ever be that consistent unless I'm focused on a watch...

For the most part it is done by feel, but I do periodically check my Garmin. I know my running route well enough that I know when I am getting close to each mile split.

7/18 -

Got in a 3 mile recovery run (3.12 @ 8:40 pace) while in High Point, NC on business. Interesting note is that they call their trails greenery. Another interesting note is that it was only 84 degrees compared to the 95 degrees that it was in Madison yesterday...

Nick Morris wrote:7/18 -

Got in a 3 mile recovery run (3.12 @ 8:40 pace) while in High Point, NC on business. Interesting note is that they call their trails greenery. Another interesting note is that it was only 84 degrees compared to the 95 degrees that it was in Madison yesterday...

who knew 84 could feel cool. Good job running on business.

7/19 -

This afternoon I got back out on the trail that I tried out yesterday. I got in 5.12 miles at a 7:44 pace. It actually start to rain a little bit this afternoon which cooled off the area even more. It was nice to run with the temperature at 80 degrees.

I was supposed to be on my way to Philly tonight, but my meetings were canceled. I had to cancel a couple of flights and reschedule a flight from Greensboro back to Madison tomorrow. So, it looks like I will be home just in time to catch the peak of the the warmth. Tomorrow's high in Madison is supposed to be 98 degrees...Yay!!!

Nice week of training last week Nick and way to top of the week with a nice 18 mile long run. Keep at it buddy and your fall marathon will be something special for you. Safe travels home and hope you enjoy the running in the heat like the rest of us.

Good luck coming back to the heat! My dad lives in Rockford and he told me they hit 100 today and I'm not sure what the heat index was. You may have to break down and hit the mill for a few days otherwise you're gonna be running at 3:00 am!

7/20 -

10 miler...

OK, so now I know what you guys have been talking about all week!!! I was welcomed home to Madison by 102 degree weather. Not to mention a heat index of around 115!! I w2as scheduled to do 10 miles tonight, but I ended up shortening it to 8 miles. I thought to myself that I would be better off running less distance than dying of heat stroke. I waited until the temperatures went down a little before attempting to run. So at around 5:30 when the temps went down to around 97 I decided to give it a go. I ended up taking water with me and ran a course that had two water fountains along the way. I completed 8.12 miles at a 7:56 pace. I was pretty happy with the run, but pretty drained at the same time. Now I am spending the rest of the evening re-hydrating in the air conditioning. They are saying that tomorrow is supposed to be a little cooler, but how much cooler is 91??

If the humidity and dew point are better though it will feel so much better. I could feel a difference today although it's still really gross outside.

I've been drinking so much water but you gotta do what you gotta do.

Catching up and man you've got some great runs there. Nice job on the 18 miler and I have no opinion on MP. Run by effort I always say but I'm also the slowest runner here so you need to push your body and make it learn from runs. I'm learning that now. That's the only way you'll get better. I guess I did have an opinion

Be careful in the heat. 97 still sounds hot as hell and I think it was smart to cut your 10 short and cool off. You can always make up the 2 miles another day this week and still keep your mileage in the 50's like planned. It is cooling off here in Denver. It was hot as hell today but the humidity didn't seem as bad and it's absolutely beautiful tonight. So hopefully we send some of this your way

I'll try blowing.......it your way

On a side note, Tim just played Hurt by Johnny Cash and all I could picture was Kermit with a spoon and on his knees. What's wrong with you!?!?!

ChasMcG wrote:Catching up and man you've got some great runs there. Nice job on the 18 miler and I have no opinion on MP. Run by effort I always say but I'm also the slowest runner here so you need to push your body and make it learn from runs. I'm learning that now. That's the only way you'll get better. I guess I did have an opinion

Be careful in the heat. 97 still sounds hot as hell and I think it was smart to cut your 10 short and cool off. You can always make up the 2 miles another day this week and still keep your mileage in the 50's like planned. It is cooling off here in Denver. It was hot as hell today but the humidity didn't seem as bad and it's absolutely beautiful tonight. So hopefully we send some of this your way

I'll try blowing.......it your way

Haha...Yes please!!

How hot is hot? 91 or 97 it don't matter it's hot! nice running.

7/21 -

5 miler on the schedule today...

Today brought much releif from the heat that we had been receiving. The temp was at 88 this afternoon when I got my run it, but it was definitely a different 88. The air was much drier than the past week. I completed 5.17 at 7:41 pace. I finished felling much better than yesterday, but was still pretty covered in sweat...