Running multiple 20's

The best thing I've done for speed is a mid-week 10-12 run. It really helps me during a marathon to get to that point in the race and still have it feel like a normal weekday run.

If the goal is faster marathon times, I posted in your blog what I think will help you most.   Its getting very used to that much faster (say 10:00) pace for some tempo-like running for as much of it as you can stand via longish intervals.   Along with your long long runs (but not nearly so many as you are talking about) at way slower paces (75% of them done slower than MP and you can speed up at end) you'll build a nice combo of endurance and the capability to run MP at a very relaxed feel.   Long Run.   Tempo at 10:00.   Rinse.  Repeat.   Before you know it, you'll feel like 10:00 is a sustainable pace and your marathon time will plummet.

Mark B wrote:

Julie wrote:I agree everyone is different and you need to find what works with you. I would say though if you choose to stick with the multiple 20s to be really cautious about injury. I don't know if you are prone to injury or not but my knees very much are and if I over do it they will let me know and the last thing anybody needs is to show up at a marathon injured. Some of my best races I've felt just slightly under trained due to a cold/sinus infection or winter weather because it made me completely injury-free. I can't do doubles, either.

Julie makes a good point. I'd add that my concern is less of you doing a several of 20s in a marathon build-up than in stretching the long run out to 23 or 24 miles. If your goal is to get faster, there is very little upside in it. You will sufficiently stimulated by the 20s -- especially if you use a 3/1 approach -- and still have the time/energy to get in a quality run that you seem to need to get those marathon times down to where you want.

Hey Mark, what exactly is a 3/1 run if you're running a 20 at MP?  Do you pick it up to HMP or faster?

T Miller wrote:

Mark B wrote:

Julie wrote:I agree everyone is different and you need to find what works with you. I would say though if you choose to stick with the multiple 20s to be really cautious about injury. I don't know if you are prone to injury or not but my knees very much are and if I over do it they will let me know and the last thing anybody needs is to show up at a marathon injured. Some of my best races I've felt just slightly under trained due to a cold/sinus infection or winter weather because it made me completely injury-free. I can't do doubles, either.

Julie makes a good point. I'd add that my concern is less of you doing a several of 20s in a marathon build-up than in stretching the long run out to 23 or 24 miles. If your goal is to get faster, there is very little upside in it. You will sufficiently stimulated by the 20s -- especially if you use a 3/1 approach -- and still have the time/energy to get in a quality run that you seem to need to get those marathon times down to where you want.

Hey Mark, what exactly is a 3/1 run if you're running a 20 at MP?  Do you pick it up to HMP or faster?

It's Hal's MP at the last 1/4 of the distance.

Jerry wrote:

T Miller wrote:

Mark B wrote:

Julie wrote:I agree everyone is different and you need to find what works with you. I would say though if you choose to stick with the multiple 20s to be really cautious about injury. I don't know if you are prone to injury or not but my knees very much are and if I over do it they will let me know and the last thing anybody needs is to show up at a marathon injured. Some of my best races I've felt just slightly under trained due to a cold/sinus infection or winter weather because it made me completely injury-free. I can't do doubles, either.

Julie makes a good point. I'd add that my concern is less of you doing a several of 20s in a marathon build-up than in stretching the long run out to 23 or 24 miles. If your goal is to get faster, there is very little upside in it. You will sufficiently stimulated by the 20s -- especially if you use a 3/1 approach -- and still have the time/energy to get in a quality run that you seem to need to get those marathon times down to where you want.

Hey Mark, what exactly is a 3/1 run if you're running a 20 at MP?  Do you pick it up to HMP or faster?

It's Hal's MP at the last 1/4 of the distance.

I think he means what pace do you run for the final quarter when you are already at marathon pace.  It is a very good question Tim, as I have never fathomed running a 20 at MP.

Nick Morris wrote:

Jerry wrote:

T Miller wrote:

Mark B wrote:

Julie wrote:I agree everyone is different and you need to find what works with you. I would say though if you choose to stick with the multiple 20s to be really cautious about injury. I don't know if you are prone to injury or not but my knees very much are and if I over do it they will let me know and the last thing anybody needs is to show up at a marathon injured. Some of my best races I've felt just slightly under trained due to a cold/sinus infection or winter weather because it made me completely injury-free. I can't do doubles, either.

Julie makes a good point. I'd add that my concern is less of you doing a several of 20s in a marathon build-up than in stretching the long run out to 23 or 24 miles. If your goal is to get faster, there is very little upside in it. You will sufficiently stimulated by the 20s -- especially if you use a 3/1 approach -- and still have the time/energy to get in a quality run that you seem to need to get those marathon times down to where you want.

Hey Mark, what exactly is a 3/1 run if you're running a 20 at MP?  Do you pick it up to HMP or faster?

It's Hal's MP at the last 1/4 of the distance.

I think he means what pace do you run for the final quarter when you are already at marathon pace.  It is a very good question Tim, as I have never fathomed running a 20 at MP.

Oh, I am now confused what they were talking about. Never mind.

T Miller wrote:

Mark B wrote:

Julie wrote:I agree everyone is different and you need to find what works with you. I would say though if you choose to stick with the multiple 20s to be really cautious about injury. I don't know if you are prone to injury or not but my knees very much are and if I over do it they will let me know and the last thing anybody needs is to show up at a marathon injured. Some of my best races I've felt just slightly under trained due to a cold/sinus infection or winter weather because it made me completely injury-free. I can't do doubles, either.

Julie makes a good point. I'd add that my concern is less of you doing a several of 20s in a marathon build-up than in stretching the long run out to 23 or 24 miles. If your goal is to get faster, there is very little upside in it. You will sufficiently stimulated by the 20s -- especially if you use a 3/1 approach -- and still have the time/energy to get in a quality run that you seem to need to get those marathon times down to where you want.

Hey Mark, what exactly is a 3/1 run if you're running a 20 at MP?  Do you pick it up to HMP or faster?

15 at MP and then 5 at HMP!!!   That better be the most sandbagged MP speed of all time.  At a true goal MP, that is now up there among the hardest workouts in the world!

Chris M wrote:

T Miller wrote:

Mark B wrote:

Julie wrote:I agree everyone is different and you need to find what works with you. I would say though if you choose to stick with the multiple 20s to be really cautious about injury. I don't know if you are prone to injury or not but my knees very much are and if I over do it they will let me know and the last thing anybody needs is to show up at a marathon injured. Some of my best races I've felt just slightly under trained due to a cold/sinus infection or winter weather because it made me completely injury-free. I can't do doubles, either.

Julie makes a good point. I'd add that my concern is less of you doing a several of 20s in a marathon build-up than in stretching the long run out to 23 or 24 miles. If your goal is to get faster, there is very little upside in it. You will sufficiently stimulated by the 20s -- especially if you use a 3/1 approach -- and still have the time/energy to get in a quality run that you seem to need to get those marathon times down to where you want.

Hey Mark, what exactly is a 3/1 run if you're running a 20 at MP?  Do you pick it up to HMP or faster?

15 at MP and then 5 at HMP!!!   That better be the most sandbagged MP speed of all time.  At a true goal MP, that is now up there among the hardest workouts in the world!

No Doubt!!

Back on December 29, 2011, I ran my last 20 at marathon pace.  Here's a link to the thread:
http://www.365runners.com/t1190-managing-pace

Jerry wrote:

Nick Morris wrote:

Jerry wrote:

T Miller wrote:

Mark B wrote:

Julie wrote:I agree everyone is different and you need to find what works with you. I would say though if you choose to stick with the multiple 20s to be really cautious about injury. I don't know if you are prone to injury or not but my knees very much are and if I over do it they will let me know and the last thing anybody needs is to show up at a marathon injured. Some of my best races I've felt just slightly under trained due to a cold/sinus infection or winter weather because it made me completely injury-free. I can't do doubles, either.

Julie makes a good point. I'd add that my concern is less of you doing a several of 20s in a marathon build-up than in stretching the long run out to 23 or 24 miles. If your goal is to get faster, there is very little upside in it. You will sufficiently stimulated by the 20s -- especially if you use a 3/1 approach -- and still have the time/energy to get in a quality run that you seem to need to get those marathon times down to where you want.

Hey Mark, what exactly is a 3/1 run if you're running a 20 at MP?  Do you pick it up to HMP or faster?

It's Hal's MP at the last 1/4 of the distance.

I think he means what pace do you run for the final quarter when you are already at marathon pace.  It is a very good question Tim, as I have never fathomed running a 20 at MP.

Oh, I am now confused what they were talking about. Never mind.

Oops! Did I confuse Jerry? Sorry!

What I should have said is do the first 15 at MP-30, then do the last 5 at MP - or even faster. If it feels too easy, then you are underestimating your abilities. Adjust accordingly. 

Another alternative is to do the first 15 at what you believe to be your marathon pace and then run the last 5 much closer to your lactate threshold - which would probably be what would feel like a half marathon pace.

Seems like you'd be running your best run in training rather than on race day with multiple 20's at the speeds discussed.  My guess is that if Ounce can complete training runs like this then he actually has more ability/potential than he realizes at this point.

I often run a couple of 17 milers where I'll run the first 10 @ MP+ 1min, the next 4 @ MP, and the last 3 @ MP- 30 sec

nkrichards wrote:Seems like you'd be running your best run in training rather than on race day with multiple 20's at the speeds discussed.  My guess is that if Ounce can complete training runs like this then he actually has more ability/potential than he realizes at this point.

Thanks for writing, Nancy.  My problem is that I can't convert training MP +60 into MP on race day.  So, it's critical for me to select a pace I think I can maintain for 26 miles and then train for it at that pace.  My body seems to respond better when I race at the pace I train.  Now, if the stars are aligned on race day, then once I'm comfortable I could maintain a little faster pace, that's gravy.

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:I often run a couple of 17 milers where I'll run the first 10 @ MP+ 1min, the next 4 @ MP, and the last 3 @ MP- 30 sec

I much appreciate your thoughts, 1L.

Nick Morris wrote:

Chris M wrote:

T Miller wrote:

Mark B wrote:

Julie wrote:I agree everyone is different and you need to find what works with you. I would say though if you choose to stick with the multiple 20s to be really cautious about injury. I don't know if you are prone to injury or not but my knees very much are and if I over do it they will let me know and the last thing anybody needs is to show up at a marathon injured. Some of my best races I've felt just slightly under trained due to a cold/sinus infection or winter weather because it made me completely injury-free. I can't do doubles, either.

Julie makes a good point. I'd add that my concern is less of you doing a several of 20s in a marathon build-up than in stretching the long run out to 23 or 24 miles. If your goal is to get faster, there is very little upside in it. You will sufficiently stimulated by the 20s -- especially if you use a 3/1 approach -- and still have the time/energy to get in a quality run that you seem to need to get those marathon times down to where you want.

Hey Mark, what exactly is a 3/1 run if you're running a 20 at MP?  Do you pick it up to HMP or faster?

15 at MP and then 5 at HMP!!!   That better be the most sandbagged MP speed of all time.  At a true goal MP, that is now up there among the hardest workouts in the world!

No Doubt!!

Oh come on, we can top that.  How about 15 at HMP?

T Miller wrote:

Nick Morris wrote:

Chris M wrote:

T Miller wrote:

Mark B wrote:

Julie wrote:I agree everyone is different and you need to find what works with you. I would say though if you choose to stick with the multiple 20s to be really cautious about injury. I don't know if you are prone to injury or not but my knees very much are and if I over do it they will let me know and the last thing anybody needs is to show up at a marathon injured. Some of my best races I've felt just slightly under trained due to a cold/sinus infection or winter weather because it made me completely injury-free. I can't do doubles, either.

Julie makes a good point. I'd add that my concern is less of you doing a several of 20s in a marathon build-up than in stretching the long run out to 23 or 24 miles. If your goal is to get faster, there is very little upside in it. You will sufficiently stimulated by the 20s -- especially if you use a 3/1 approach -- and still have the time/energy to get in a quality run that you seem to need to get those marathon times down to where you want.

Hey Mark, what exactly is a 3/1 run if you're running a 20 at MP?  Do you pick it up to HMP or faster?

15 at MP and then 5 at HMP!!!   That better be the most sandbagged MP speed of all time.  At a true goal MP, that is now up there among the hardest workouts in the world!

No Doubt!!

Oh come on, we can top that.  How about 15 at HMP?

10MP/5HMP/5@5K pace?

I love 20+ runs but this cycle in doing only 3 but I'm going balls to the walls on speed work and every long run included mp pace 2@16@mp.

fostever wrote:

Jerry wrote:You do, as long as you can handle and the miles result in fitness improvement. That's actually what I did to achieve BQ and sub 3. 

Another thing is you would need to consistently train before the cycle starts. Programs like Hal's sort of assume people take breaks in between cycles, thus starts with low mile ages.

Steve, I mean Jerry, you ran a sub 3? Never knew, hark. You are high mileage and fast enough halfs to go close to sub 2:50. Maybe Hansen philosophy could bring lower marathon time? I guess the question is WWSD? or WWPD (Pre)

Jerry ran a sub-3???

My Priorities during my marathon build up:
Average weekly mileage (I think your better off doing 4x 12, than a 20, 10, 5, 5)
Hitting workout and test races at the right paces, without taper
No more than 3x 20 milers

I ran my spring marathon with 17 miles as my longest run, not a PR, but <3hrs.  I followed this up a few weeks later with an Ultra (~43 miles), while not the most pleasant last 2 miles, I average <7:30 from miles 30~40; this was an almost 110 mile week.
My point was my high weekly volume produced the fitness I needed, without feeling run down by the 20~23 mile workout I had used in the past.
Of note, I was only training for a goal 1/2 Marathon during that training cycle.