Breaking Away

Mark B wrote:

Jim Lentz wrote:Those shoes look very interesting to me. If they fit like the Kinvara and have a smilar weight that would be great. I have some trail shoes I really like other than the fact that they are just over 10 ounces. I am surprised you have to get them in a size that is as big as the store.

LOL, Jim! Thankfully, my feet aren't THAT big!

Saucony says the Peregrine is built on the same foot-form as the Kinvara, with a 4 mm heel-to-toe drop. They weigh in at 9.1 ounces, according to the company, though my kitchen scale says my shoes (size 10.5) is in the 10- to 11-ounce range. Still, for trail shoes with some protection, that's pretty light.

Sure, my Free 3.0s weigh just under 8 ounces, but they were not up to the task when I did a trail race in rugged conditions this June. I'm hoping the trade-off of weight for protection is worth it.

I don't know about you Mark, but I found that the shoe feels a lot lighter then what the weight is. I have other road shoes that weight the same and they feel heavy on my feet, but when I run on the trails in the Peregrine they just feel light and feel light on the trail. Just my take, what do you think?

Schuey wrote:Hey Mark like your pictures above.

Also what program are using to download the map and elevation of your runs? I like the way the second one shows the Topo, that second run looked like it was one hell of a run.

Hey, Schuey! Thanks for stopping by! (And props to you for taking the challenge of pacing Chris to a sub-3 in Chicago. If anybody can hold that racehorse at bay, it's the Bull. )

The map was generated when I downloaded my Garmin data into the RunningAHEAD (link to site) website. It's free, and it works pretty well. It also provides "corrected" elevation numbers from the wildly inaccurate data that usually comes out of the Garmin. It also lets you view your route on a number of different maps, including satellites views, USGS topo maps and even the Google-generated terrain map that I use. It's pretty nifty.

One extra note on the elevation profile: While it was a good challenging run (I'm still feeling it), I didn't actually get in 6,500 feet of climbing. Even the "corrected" numbers are pretty wildly off. My best guess is that I did about 1,700 feet of climbing overall, not counting all the smaller dips and rolls. Not quite as impressive, but still a solid workout.

Schuey wrote:I don't know about you Mark, but I found that the shoe feels a lot lighter then what the weight is. I have other road shoes that weight the same and they feel heavy on my feet, but when I run on the trails in the Peregrine they just feel light and feel light on the trail. Just my take, what do you think?

Good point. They don't feel heavy at all. Maybe it's because all the weight is in the tread and not wrapped around your foot? The upper is very thin, which is the way I like it. And they definitely seem to like the trails. I had it all on Monday: dirt, pine needles, leaves, rocks, roots, gravel and mud. The shoes handled them all effortlessly. It was my longest trail run ever, but at least as far as my feet went, it didn't feel that way.

It looks like I made a good choice. Thanks for the suggestion!

Hill Run: 6.4 miles (612 feet climbing, 1,224 total elevation change)

Weather: Partly cloudy, mild, muggy. 60-64 degrees, 75% humidity. Gear: FR2s, shorts, T. Fuel: Cereal, rice milk and coffee. Odwala bar. Carried nuun in handheld.

I'm still feeling off from Monday's run, so I was prepared to not push this sorta-long hill run as far possible. My body is still feeling a little flat, which is a weird sensation.

I'm not sure if I'm flat because I worked so hard on Monday (I swear, it wasn't THAT hard a run), or because I haven't sufficiently recharged from that effort. That makes me a little nervous going into this weekend, when I was thinking about doing a back-to-back setup, with a medium-long road run Sunday morning with a buddy, then a long trail run on Monday.

Mark B wrote:Hill Run: 6.4 miles (612 feet climbing, 1,224 total elevation change)

Weather: Partly cloudy, mild, muggy. 60-64 degrees, 75% humidity. Gear: FR2s, shorts, T. Fuel: Cereal, rice milk and coffee. Odwala bar. Carried nuun in handheld.

I'm still feeling off from Monday's run, so I was prepared to not push this sorta-long hill run as far possible. My body is still feeling a little flat, which is a weird sensation.

I'm not sure if I'm flat because I worked so hard on Monday (I swear, it wasn't THAT hard a run), or because I haven't sufficiently recharged from that effort. That makes me a little nervous going into this weekend, when I was thinking about doing a back-to-back setup, with a medium-long road run Sunday morning with a buddy, then a long trail run on Monday.

Nice hill run, Mark. Hopefully you're feeling 100% soon.

Jim Lentz wrote:

Mark B wrote:Hill Run: 6.4 miles (612 feet climbing, 1,224 total elevation change)

Weather: Partly cloudy, mild, muggy. 60-64 degrees, 75% humidity. Gear: FR2s, shorts, T. Fuel: Cereal, rice milk and coffee. Odwala bar. Carried nuun in handheld.

I'm still feeling off from Monday's run, so I was prepared to not push this sorta-long hill run as far possible. My body is still feeling a little flat, which is a weird sensation.

I'm not sure if I'm flat because I worked so hard on Monday (I swear, it wasn't THAT hard a run), or because I haven't sufficiently recharged from that effort. That makes me a little nervous going into this weekend, when I was thinking about doing a back-to-back setup, with a medium-long road run Sunday morning with a buddy, then a long trail run on Monday.

Nice hill run, Mark. Hopefully you're feeling 100% soon.

Thanks, Jim. I'm still trying to figure out what it is. Glycogen depletion? External stress? Insufficient recovery? Lack of liquid maltose as a dietary supplement? Hm...

Maybe it was a hard run, or you didn't sleep enough, or you're coming down with something. I don't know but I think we all have not-so-good days. It doesn't mean this weekend won't be good, though!

Julie wrote:Maybe it was a hard run, or you didn't sleep enough, or you're coming down with something. I don't know but I think we all have not-so-good days. It doesn't mean this weekend won't be good, though!

Very true, Julie. And sleep might be part of it. I'm working two weeks of swing shifts but still getting up at 6:30 every morning to get kid and wife off to school. I usually get a couple of day shifts, which can get me a bit more sleep. That might have something to do with it, too.

Mark B wrote:Hill Run: 6.4 miles (612 feet climbing, 1,224 total elevation change)

Weather: Partly cloudy, mild, muggy. 60-64 degrees, 75% humidity. Gear: FR2s, shorts, T. Fuel: Cereal, rice milk and coffee. Odwala bar. Carried nuun in handheld.

I'm still feeling off from Monday's run, so I was prepared to not push this sorta-long hill run as far possible. My body is still feeling a little flat, which is a weird sensation.

I'm not sure if I'm flat because I worked so hard on Monday (I swear, it wasn't THAT hard a run), or because I haven't sufficiently recharged from that effort. That makes me a little nervous going into this weekend, when I was thinking about doing a back-to-back setup, with a medium-long road run Sunday morning with a buddy, then a long trail run on Monday.

Mark here is my take looking back at your last 3 runs, you may feel that the runs or in particular Monday's run was not that hard of run. One thing I have learned over the years it doesn't matter how hard or not so hard of a run but the stress the body is put through. Sure you are correct that the faster or more effort we put into a run the more it will take out of us.

But let's not forget that the actually route we run and how often we have run that route will also determine how much it beats us up no matter what the effort level is. Example would be let's say you went months without doing a tempo run or going to the track. Now no matter what the pace is there is no doubt that you will feel the stress of that run because it is a new stress to the body. And occurs as you pick-up the pace on those runs you still feel that same figure and stress due to the effort. And then as time goes on you start to get us to it and start to recover faster from it.

So were am I going with this? Well I know you have hilly terrain out by you but if you haven't run the hilly terrain much or have been running it for a while now since coming back from the ankle injury your body is most likely trying to adapt to it all. Plus after looking at the terrain from your run last Friday, then Monday and then another hilly run of 6.4 miles. That is a lot of stress on the body and the muscles no matter how the effort was or what the pace was. Follow me on that, now I could be wrong because I'm not an expert and I don't know everything but from my past experience the body can really give you mix signals and recovery can be different from week to week no matter what we feel the effort level was.


I could go on and give you examples of what happens to me from time to time and how I'm surprised by how I recover from some runs and how I don't from other runs. Sure you could be right it could be a combo of things the run, sleep, food, job stress and etc. etc.. Bottom line is sometimes it can just be the run itself and even when we think that run wasn't that bad really it did have a effect on the muscles and body due to the stress of the route and maybe from not doing it as much or doing a lot of a particular route or type of run.

Hope I made some sense it that post. Then again I would be surprised if I made sense! I guess that is why I try not over think things and just run. Haha

Schuey wrote:Mark here is my take looking back at your last 3 runs, you may feel that the runs or in particular Monday's run was not that hard of run. One thing I have learned over the years it doesn't matter how hard or not so hard of a run but the stress the body is put through. Sure you are correct that the faster or more effort we put into a run the more it will take out of us.

But let's not forget that the actually route we run and how often we have run that route will also determine how much it beats us up no matter what the effort level is. Example would be let's say you went months without doing a tempo run or going to the track. Now no matter what the pace is there is no doubt that you will feel the stress of that run because it is a new stress to the body. And occurs as you pick-up the pace on those runs you still feel that same figure and stress due to the effort. And then as time goes on you start to get us to it and start to recover faster from it.

So were am I going with this? Well I know you have hilly terrain out by you but if you haven't run the hilly terrain much or have been running it for a while now since coming back from the ankle injury your body is most likely trying to adapt to it all. Plus after looking at the terrain from your run last Friday, then Monday and then another hilly run of 6.4 miles. That is a lot of stress on the body and the muscles no matter how the effort was or what the pace was. Follow me on that, now I could be wrong because I'm not an expert and I don't know everything but from my past experience the body can really give you mix signals and recovery can be different from week to week no matter what we feel the effort level was.


I could go on and give you examples of what happens to me from time to time and how I'm surprised by how I recover from some runs and how I don't from other runs. Sure you could be right it could be a combo of things the run, sleep, food, job stress and etc. etc.. Bottom line is sometimes it can just be the run itself and even when we think that run wasn't that bad really it did have a effect on the muscles and body due to the stress of the route and maybe from not doing it as much or doing a lot of a particular route or type of run.

Hope I made some sense it that post. Then again I would be surprised if I made sense! I guess that is why I try not over think things and just run. Haha

Oh, you made a lot of sense, Schuey: With all the possible explanations that are out there, we tend to forget that the simplest explanations are often the best ones. And in this case, the simplest explanation is that I'm pushing my body a little harder than it wants to be pushed - and it's pushing back.

Case in point: At about 2:15 this morning, I rolled over in bed and *WHAM!* -- I got hit with a butt cramp/spasm that pretty much wrecked the rest of the night. I couldn't pin down the exact point to where it hurt, but wow... did it hurt.

Now, I'm not sure exactly what I did to cause that to happen (something similar happened a couple of nights ago, and it's been a little sore when I'm sitting at my desk at work), but I bet it has something to do with all the new stimulus of running up and down hills at all sorts of different speeds and on all sorts of different surfaces*. My body is evolving into one of a trail runner as long-dormant muscles turn on and start to get stronger (it actually feels different to walk around, the musculature is changing so much), and I need to be patient and let it happen.

I'm all for "letting it happen" - which is why I have absolutely ZERO races on my must-do list for next year - but I'm a little nervous about being ready to run Tecumseh in a couple of months. I know it's a trail marathon and therefore not something that you'd "race" like a road marathon, but still... it's 26.2 miles with lots of hills, and I'd like to be able to enjoy the race and the company and finish with a smile on my face.

So what that means for this weekend... I'm not sure. Part of me wants to keep ramping up the miles so I can get as many 20s in as possible... but the wiser part of me is telling me it'd be better to do one run rather than two and make next week a step-back week. Maybe that'll give my body time to regroup and settle into this new routine. Hm...


*-(The butt spasms might have something do with with the gymnastics I went through while trying to clean the shower on Monday, which proves once and for all that housework is evil. )

Hi, Mark!!

Have you announced in your blog that I'm running Tecumseh WITH you? And carrying a camera?

Mark, when I get cramps I get them in the calves, but it sounds similar. I have found if I do a tough run and don't work hard to rehydrate before I go to sleep I get the cramps. I also notice that the muscles tend to do this little spasm dance when the have been worked hard and haven't been rehydrated fully.

wendy_miller wrote:Hi, Mark!!

Have you announced in your blog that I'm running Tecumseh WITH you? And carrying a camera?

Uh... not until this very moment!

So, one interesting twist on Tecumseh. Wendy (who, with help from Tim and her brother and other Indiana running buddies successfully badgered me into running Tecumseh with them this December) has said she's going to actually run with me during the race. Now, I don't know that Wendy fully understands what it's like to run at my pace... but I'm fairly confident that her head won't explode when she realizes that I'm not bounding through the forest like some gazelle.

The great question, however, is who is going to fall down more. Hm.. I wonder if I can get some action going on that. It brings a whole new meaning to the term "over-under."

Jim Lentz wrote:Mark, when I get cramps I get them in the calves, but it sounds similar. I have found if I do a tough run and don't work hard to rehydrate before I go to sleep I get the cramps. I also notice that the muscles tend to do this little spasm dance when the have been worked hard and haven't been rehydrated fully.

That's an interesting point, Jim. I hadn't considered hydration. It's cooled off a bit here now, so perhaps I'm not drinking as much as before. I'll have to give that a try.

Trail Run: 13.08 miles (Wildwood Trail: Lower Macleay Park to Firelane #1 and back)

Weather: Overcast, maybe some drizzle, but nothing that penetrated the forest canopy. 56-60, 88% humidity. Gear: Peregrines, shorts, T. Fuel: Cereal w/rice milk, coffee, then Chiarade. Two Gu on run, carried nuun, 4 endurolytes total.

After my weird muscle spasms and fatigue last week, I figured it was time for a stepback on the long run. I took the same route I've been taking on my past few long runs, but I turned around where Wildwood Trail crosses Firelane #1 rather than press on. It's a pretty spot, with a couple of picnic tables and a nice clearing in the woods.

I could feel my hip was a little sore on the trail, but not horribly so. It was actually less comfortable to power hike than to run, so I might have done a little more running this time. Instead of breaking to a walk, I'd just slow down and see how it felt. That worked some of the time - though not on the steepest grades.

Here's the map and elevation profile (though the elevation change is far from accurate):

Nice trail run, Mark.

Hey Mark,

Know a running store in Portland with potentially CW-X? A name will be sufficient. I can place a call to find out if they have it or not.

Thanks,
Jerry

Jim Lentz wrote:Nice trail run, Mark.

Thanks, Jim! I'd though the most difficult part was going to be cleaning the slug guts out of the soles of my shoes (I tried to miss them, honest!), but I ended up with another night of butt/hip pain. Dangit! I can't even nail down the exact location. Maybe I'll try some heat and see if that helps.

Jerry wrote:Hey Mark,

Know a running store in Portland with potentially CW-X? A name will be sufficient. I can place a call to find out if they have it or not.

Thanks,
Jerry

Hey Jerry, looking to avoid sales tax? I do most of my shopping at Fit Right NW. I think I've seen CW-X there, though maybe not a full selection. Here's a list from the CW-X website.


THE RUNNING COMPANY
4020 NE FREMONT ST, PORTLAND, OR
97212

PHONE: (905) 815-1952
WEBSITE: WWW.THERUNNINGCOMPANY.COM

FOOT TRAFFIC
4020 NE FREMONT ST, PORTLAND, OR
97212

PHONE: (503) 284-0345
WEBSITE: WWW.FOOTTRAFFIC.US

FIT RIGHT NORTHWEST
1207 NW 23RD AVENUE, PORTLAND, OR
97210

PHONE: (503) 525-2122
ALL TRI SPORTS
11923 NE HALSEY, PORTLAND, OR
97220

PHONE: (503) 408-8303
WEBSITE: WWW.ALLTRISPORTS.COM


Good hunting!

I will be at the Tecumseh Trail Marathon too.
Maybe not a great idea a month after the Monumental, but I will be taking it easy.
Anyone on this forum at Tecumseh will be way ahead of me, for sure and that is fine.
After this week I will be doing some hiking in the hills of the Jackson-Washington Forestry on non-running days to use different muscles. My main event is the Monumental, with the Tecumseh being a new experience.

And I am guaranteed PRs in both events!

I hope to meet some of you there.

Mark B wrote:

Jim Lentz wrote:Nice trail run, Mark.

Thanks, Jim! I'd though the most difficult part was going to be cleaning the slug guts out of the soles of my shoes (I tried to miss them, honest!), but I ended up with another night of butt/hip pain. Dangit! I can't even nail down the exact location. Maybe I'll try some heat and see if that helps.

Jerry wrote:Hey Mark,

Know a running store in Portland with potentially CW-X? A name will be sufficient. I can place a call to find out if they have it or not.

Thanks,
Jerry

Hey Jerry, looking to avoid sales tax? I do most of my shopping at Fit Right NW. I think I've seen CW-X there, though maybe not a full selection. Here's a list from the CW-X website.


THE RUNNING COMPANY
4020 NE FREMONT ST, PORTLAND, OR
97212

PHONE: (905) 815-1952
WEBSITE: WWW.THERUNNINGCOMPANY.COM

FOOT TRAFFIC
4020 NE FREMONT ST, PORTLAND, OR
97212

PHONE: (503) 284-0345
WEBSITE: WWW.FOOTTRAFFIC.US

FIT RIGHT NORTHWEST
1207 NW 23RD AVENUE, PORTLAND, OR
97210

PHONE: (503) 525-2122
ALL TRI SPORTS
11923 NE HALSEY, PORTLAND, OR
97220

PHONE: (503) 408-8303
WEBSITE: WWW.ALLTRISPORTS.COM


Good hunting!

No, not for myself. I don't need that fancy stuff in Texas.

Thanks Mark!

charles.moman wrote:I will be at the Tecumseh Trail Marathon too.
Maybe not a great idea a month after the Monumental, but I will be taking it easy.
Anyone on this forum at Tecumseh will be way ahead of me, for sure and that is fine.
After this week I will be doing some hiking in the hills of the Jackson-Washington Forestry on non-running days to use different muscles. My main event is the Monumental, with the Tecumseh being a new experience.

And I am guaranteed PRs in both events!

I hope to meet some of you there.

That's terrific, Charles! I'll be there, as will Tim and Wendy Miller, some of their friends and relatives. Maybe more.

This will be my first trail marathon, as well. I've turned my training upside-down to get ready (and my body seems to be in shock), but I'm happy to say that this will also be a PR effort for me, as long as I manage to finish!

It's not that big a race, so I'm sure we'll have plenty of time to talk. Looking forward to it!

Jerry wrote:

No, not for myself. I don't need that fancy stuff in Texas.

Thanks Mark!

To paraphrase your governor, they might "treat you pretty ugly" for wearing something like that down in Texas.

Actually, you'd probably even get some weird looks around here, too. We Pacific Northwest runners tend to keep a low profile, attire-wise - and CW-X is pretty flashy.

Easy Road Run: About 6 miles

Weather: Overcast, breezy, humid. 53 degrees, 98% humidity. Gear: FR2s, shorts, long-sleeved T, jacket/vest, hat. Fuel: Cereal and rice milk, coffee. Chiarade before run, nothing during.

Fall arrived here in the past day or so. I had to grab slightly warmer gear for this morning's run! Ah well, summer was nice...

I wanted this to be a nice easy run - no hills, just running - as I experiment with a new schedule. So I went out on a flatter route and tried to find a nice easy pace and remind myself what it feels like to cruise. That's not something I've done a lot lately, what with running on trails or up and down hills on the roads. It felt weird.

I even broke out my Garmin for this run. I've found myself oddly winded after a couple of miles on flats, so I wanted to see if I was starting out too hard. And the answer was... yes. I smoothly accelerated up to a sub-9 pace within a block or so of starting running. Oops. No wonder. I reined it in and spent the rest of the run in the mid-9s. It felt about right. (I didn't put on the HR monitor because, well.. I didn't feel like it.)

My left hip ached a little during the run (I did some poking and prodding yesterday and I'm suspecting either a strained muscle or irritated bursa) and it's a little sore now. I'll see how it recovers before deciding on my run tomorrow. It'll probably be shorter, maybe with some hills.

Hill Run: About 4 miles

Weather: Overcast, cool. 53 degrees, 98% humidity. Gear: FR2s, shorts, long-sleeved T, jacket/vest, hat. Fuel: Cereal and rice milk, coffee. Didn't take water on run.

Day 2 of my experiment went fairly well. I headed out for a shortish hill run near my house. Things went pretty well, though I started to get some hip/butt cramping toward the end. I'm not sure if it was aggravated by the ups or downs, or by the several times I had to stop to respond to text messages. Ah, technology!

I'll be meeting Jack Scaff and his wife for lunch later this morning. They're running Portland, and it'll be fun to be around people in taper when I'm not in taper myself!

A couple of nice looking early fall days Mark. I hope the hip is o.k. Enjoy lunch with Jack.

Thanks, Seth! I think it's just going to take some time until whatever I tweaked settled down. I'm asking my body to do a lot of different things now, and maybe I need to be patient and let my body adapt at its own pace.

Lunch with Jack and his wife Julie was great. We met up at a Thai restaurant in Portland and a great meal and great conversation. For two people in taper, they seemed remarkably calm! I could probably learn something from them.

Here's a photo that Julie snapped of Jack and I after lunch. I made sure to give them a guide to Portland brew pubs.



She also got a photo with their camera of Jack and I testing out the new "365" hand gesture (touch index finger to thumb like you're making an 'OK' sign and straighten and fan your other fingers to make a 3).

I don't know ASL, so I hope we weren't signing something inappropriate.

Edit to add: (Okay, before Mike comes in and steals the thunder... I looked it up, and it's apparently the sign for the number 9 or letter F. Oh well.)

Easy Run: About 8 miles

Weather: Overcast, cool, some light rain. 54 degrees, 98% humidity. Gear: FR2s, shorts, T, jacket, hat. Fuel: Oatmeal/chia, coffee. Carried nuun.

This is Day 3 of my grand experiment. An easy medium-length run to precede my long trail run on Monday. I met up with my training buddy (the first time we've run together since I obliterated my ankle this summer), so we had a lot of catching up to do. So we chatted and cruised, pausing every once in a while to walk, taking it easy. He's not training for anything, so eight was a good long run distance for him. For me, it was a good foundation for tomorrow's trail run.

As I was out there, dripping wet, I couldn't help but notice how easy it felt to run. It made me think about my friends running this morning in Chicago in (once again) too-hot conditions. I bet there are quite a few disappointed people today. That's one of my biggest frustrations about this sport... so much training goes into peaking for a race, only to have it possibly go out the window due to weather or something else beyond your control.

Food note: I mixed in a tablespoon of chia seeds into some oatmeal this morning. It looked a little weird, but it added a slightly nutty taste to the oatmeal. Definitely worth doing again.

Also: I forgot to mention, the previously-obliterated ankle has healed up nicely.