Term Limits?

Hey, Maffetone!

So Nancy is right: One key to Maffetone is the MAF test, where you go to a track, warm up for a mile allowing your HR to slowly rise to your low HR target level. Then start timing and run one mile with your HR as close to the target as you can get it. Record the time. Repeat the test every month as you do low HR training and check for improvement. To expand the test, keep going after the first MAF mile and, while keeping your HR at the low HR target, record the time it takes to run each of four successive miles on the track. You WILL slow down, a lot at first, and less and less as you do the training. It was the most powerful motivator I had to keep using that approach, because it worked. I finally got to the point to where I could do five miles with little fall-off in pace while maintaining my low HR. That's when I knew.

(Note: A big part of my success was running by time, not distance. The faster I got at the lower HR, the farther I went. It was a great motivator.)

Now, that said, I also did a different type of training when I had my greatest success. It was this system of heart rate training based on this article by a guy named Hadd. Every week, I'd do a different sort of heart rate run, called an "initial lactate threshold heart rate run," in which I picked a target HR that represented the point to where I was *just* below my LT and ran at that HR for a set time/distance. Just like a MAF run, though on the roads, I'd slow down over time... but I'd slow down less and less the more times I did the run. As time went on, the fall-off curve flattened out. Hadd's goal, which I could never achieve, was that once you can go a distance with no appreciable fall-off at that lactate threshold heart rate, you then reset your ILTHR target up a set number of bpm and start all over again. Repeat until you can't get any faster, and you've effectively squeezed every last drop of toothpaste out of the tube aerobically -- which means THEN it's time for speedwork.

I can't imagine anyone with a job or a life or desire to run more than one race every two years would have the time/patience to try something like that, but I can tell you from my playing around with it that it definitely worked. (It also helped me run myself into an overtrained state that pretty much killed my marathon career, but that was my own fault. Hard to tell the difference between an imminent breakthrough and an imminent breakdown. Go figure.)

As always, your mileage may vary.

nkrichards wrote:I think you're on the right track Doug.  The problem is going to be making sure you're comparing apples to apples.  In other words what factors are affecting your HR in addition to pace.  Elevation gain/loss?  Total distance?  Temperature and humidity?  Are you tired?  Hungry? Stressed from life in general?  Mark can weigh in here but I think with Maffetone he has you do a test under relatively similar conditions every so often.  The hope is that with the same HR you can cover more distance in the same time.  Pretty much the same concept just looking at it from a different direction...keep the HR the same and watch the pace increase rather than increase the pace and hope the HR catches up.  Pretty much the same results. 

I'm not dedicated enough to the philosophy to track everything that close.  And I find trying to intentionally stay in a HR range stresses me out and raises my HR just from the worrying.

Nice run BTW.  Keep at it!

I think it'll be mostly apples to apples.  Maybe Red Delicious vs Fuji, but enough to be comparable.  Distance and elevation will be the same.  Hungry, nah.  Life stress, minimal.  Temperature and humidity, now THAT could be a factor, which is why I'm doing it now before we get into the dog days of Spring and the lake of fire of the Summer.  5 miles will be the distance until HR gets to 131, except for a long run.

Once the 5 mile HR becomes 131, I haven't figured out yet what the next step will be.  Logically, the next step would be to run up to 140 bpm again and repeat.  If the next step would start in April or May, well, it may be only a smaller pace reduction would occur due to heat 'n humidity. 

Another option would be to run farther, instead of 5 miles.  After all, the goal race is a marathon and a half marathon and to be faster than the official finish time.

Thanks for your comments and honesty, Nancy.

Mark B wrote:Hey, Maffetone!

So Nancy is right: One key to Maffetone is the MAF test, where you go to a track, warm up for a mile allowing your HR to slowly rise to your low HR target level. Then start timing and run one mile with your HR as close to the target as you can get it. Record the time. Repeat the test every month as you do low HR training and check for improvement. To expand the test, keep going after the first MAF mile and, while keeping your HR at the low HR target, record the time it takes to run each of four successive miles on the track. You WILL slow down, a lot at first, and less and less as you do the training. It was the most powerful motivator I had to keep using that approach, because it worked. I finally got to the point to where I could do five miles with little fall-off in pace while maintaining my low HR. That's when I knew.

(Note: A big part of my success was running by time, not distance. The faster I got at the lower HR, the farther I went. It was a great motivator.)

Now, that said, I also did a different type of training when I had my greatest success. It was this system of heart rate training based on this article by a guy named Hadd. Every week, I'd do a different sort of heart rate run, called an "initial lactate threshold heart rate run," in which I picked a target HR that represented the point to where I was *just* below my LT and ran at that HR for a set time/distance. Just like a MAF run, though on the roads, I'd slow down over time... but I'd slow down less and less the more times I did the run. As time went on, the fall-off curve flattened out. Hadd's goal, which I could never achieve, was that once you can go a distance with no appreciable fall-off at that lactate threshold heart rate, you then reset your ILTHR target up a set number of bpm and start all over again. Repeat until you can't get any faster, and you've effectively squeezed every last drop of toothpaste out of the tube aerobically -- which means THEN it's time for speedwork.

I can't imagine anyone with a job or a life or desire to run more than one race every two years would have the time/patience to try something like that, but I can tell you from my playing around with it that it definitely worked. (It also helped me run myself into an overtrained state that pretty much killed my marathon career, but that was my own fault. Hard to tell the difference between an imminent breakthrough and an imminent breakdown. Go figure.)

As always, your mileage may vary.

Thanks, Mark.  I guess I'm kinda working on Hadd's thought, but since I haven't trained to LT in many years, I'll just use 140's bpm for the time being.

I'll check out the link, too.

-30-

I almost finished this report once.  So I'm posting numbers, then adding perspective.

Today is the 2nd 5 mile run at an average of ~140 bpm.

It was 38 degrees, this morning, with a noticeable headwind, but not enough to slow me down (no whistling in the ear).  I guess the only unknown is how the legs would respond to another faster pace workout.

I am including the elapsed time at three different HR zones:  Zone 1 <120, Zone 2 120-139 bpm, & Zone 3 140-159 bpm just to give this numbers nerd another cluster of data to analyze.

Wednesday's run at 56 degrees
5 miles, 1:04:48, 12:56 avg pace, 140 avg HR, 151 HR max, 164 avg cadence, 1st half pace 13:01, 2nd half pace 12:51
1.  13:23, 127 bpm, 162 spm
2.  12:45, 137 bpm, 162 spm
3.  12:39, 142 bpm, 162 spm
4.  12:56, 146 bpm, 162 spm
5.  13:02, 146 bpm, 162 spm

Zone 1, <120 - 00:51
Zone 2, 120-139 bpm 22:33
Zone 3, 140-159 bpm 41:03

Today---
5 miles 1:03:15, 12:39 pace, 142 avg bpm, 151 Max HR, 165 avg cadence
1.  12:49, 132 bpm, 160 spm
2.  12:33, 139 bpm, 164 spm
3.  12:33, 145 bpm, 164 spm
4.  12:40, 146 bpm, 164 spm
5.  12:40, 145 bpm, 164 spm

Zone 1- <120 bpm, 00:40
Zone 2- 120-139 bpm, 16:36
Zone 3- 140-159 bpm, 45:49

Seemed like I was getting tired during mile 3.  I turned around at 2.5 (this was a non-stop run.  Wednesday was a 1 stop run) and kept up the cadence, but my feet were not consistently lifting high enough to avoid a miniscule change in elevation.  With a mile to go (probably because it was the last mile), whatever was tired resolved itself.

more to come.....

Nice run today Doug.  Was it on the same course?  Do you think the lower temp helped?  I love running when the temps are in the 30's.  40's are OK.  56 is getting warm for me.  60's are downright HOT.

While I enjoy crunching the numbers...and often spend more time on them than I probably should...I haven't been nearly as engaged lately.  Probably because I've done so much lower HR, slower running that's it's discouraging.

Keep at it and keep us updated.  It's interesting.

Oh...do take the time to read the Hadd article.  I read it several years ago...it's an interesting read.

Thanks, Nancy.  Yes, same course.  Unless I'm running to the parking garage or somewhere specific, the first 3.33 miles (where I pick up the 3 mile loop in Memorial Park) and the last 3.33 (where I leave the 3 mile loop at Memorial Park to run home) of all of my runs are over the same course.  So anything less than 6.66 miles total will always be on the same course.

The temp helped, but I think knowing what to expect, as a result of Wednesday's 5, helped more.  Knowing that I could run 5 miles in the high 12's accounted for a lot of it.  The sidewalks were dry, too.  I also started faster in the beginning, which accounted for 34 second reduction in the first mile's split.

Wednesday's HR zone by distance.  Zone 3 is 140-160 bpm


Friday's HR zone by distance


So, the diabolical scheme will show (if my hypothesis is correct) that as time goes on, Zone 2's percentage will increase as the heart becomes more efficient.  As long as the temperature doesn't hinder performance (which I think will be 70 degrees or less), then the heart will just have to focus on effort.

I'm tempted to run another 5 on Sunday morning, instead of a long run, because I won't be able to run next week.  Logic says, 'run the long run.'

I ran 16 miles, this week.  No pain.  No troubles.

This is the first and last 2.5 miles of every run I do.

I would've shown the first 3.33, but the computer code was too long for the message.

This morning, I went to the gym.  I wasn't constrained as to time, so I almost did every routine I know to do.  Population at 6 on a Saturday morning was less than 5 a.m. during the week.  I was able to reduce inefficiencies. 

Tomorrow should be the long run which would be 7 or 8 miles.  It's supposed to be in the 50s.  I hope that I don't run another 5 mile HR run.  A lot of time between now and then.

Happy running...and lifting...

This morning, it was 60 degrees with fog.  It wasn't too difficult to decide on doing 7 miles at LSD.  It was the right distance and type of run to do.  One thing that I did find out on this run, which is seen when I run low HR, is that it's difficult to run a 163 cadence at a low pace.  Seems like if I maintain cadence, I'm concerned my HR will be too high, which is completely illogical.  It'll be higher, but certainly not too high.  It might also be that if I'm turning over 163, I'll want to go faster.  That seems more plausible to me.

A low HR 7 mile run?  Nailed that. 
A result of running faster?  I think it's supposed to be, but I don't really know.  Maybe y'all can enlighten me on that question.

7 miles, 1:41:55, 14:32 pace, 127 avg bpm, 137 Max HR, 156 avg cadence, 1st half pace 14:33, 2nd half pace 14:31
1.  15:04, 124 bpm, 160 spm
2.  14:24, 129 bpm, 158 spm
3.  14:23, 127 bpm, 154 spm
4.  14:16, 126 bpm, 158 spm
5.  14:38, 125 bpm, 148 spm
6.  14:21, 127 bpm, 154 spm
7.  14:42, 126 bpm, 148 spm

HR zone 2 - 120-139 bpm


Like I said yesterday, I won't be able to run until February 24.  Thanks for stopping by!

ounce wrote:This morning, it was 60 degrees with fog.  It wasn't too difficult to decide on doing 7 miles at LSD.  It was the right distance and type of run to do.  One thing that I did find out on this run, which is seen when I run low HR, is that it's difficult to run a 163 cadence at a low pace.  Seems like if I maintain cadence, I'm concerned my HR will be too high, which is completely illogical.  It'll be higher, but certainly not too high.  It might also be that if I'm turning over 163, I'll want to go faster.  That seems more plausible to me.

A low HR 7 mile run?  Nailed that. 
A result of running faster?  I think it's supposed to be, but I don't really know.  Maybe y'all can enlighten me on that question.

7 miles, 1:41:55, 14:32 pace, 127 avg bpm, 137 Max HR, 156 avg cadence, 1st half pace 14:33, 2nd half pace 14:31
1.  15:04, 124 bpm, 160 spm
2.  14:24, 129 bpm, 158 spm
3.  14:23, 127 bpm, 154 spm
4.  14:16, 126 bpm, 158 spm
5.  14:38, 125 bpm, 148 spm
6.  14:21, 127 bpm, 154 spm
7.  14:42, 126 bpm, 148 spm

HR zone 2 - 120-139 bpm


Like I said yesterday, I won't be able to run until February 24.  Thanks for stopping by!

Wow you nailed that!  I'm impressed with your self control!!   Interesting to see the drop off in your cadence.  I've always found that a higher cadence leads to a higher HR.  

Nice run before your break from running.

Excellent job maintaining that low HR. 

Your pace falloff was very minor, which tells me that you're in a position to pick it up at least once a week - maybe more - for a lactate threshold run. I think your body will like it.

Mark B wrote:Excellent job maintaining that low HR. 

Your pace falloff was very minor, which tells me that you're in a position to pick it up at least once a week - maybe more - for a lactate threshold run. I think your body will like it.

+1  But watch out for Fast Freddy...he's looking for a running partner.

nkrichards wrote:

ounce wrote:This morning, it was 60 degrees with fog.  It wasn't too difficult to decide on doing 7 miles at LSD.  It was the right distance and type of run to do.  One thing that I did find out on this run, which is seen when I run low HR, is that it's difficult to run a 163 cadence at a low pace.  Seems like if I maintain cadence, I'm concerned my HR will be too high, which is completely illogical.  It'll be higher, but certainly not too high.  It might also be that if I'm turning over 163, I'll want to go faster.  That seems more plausible to me.

A low HR 7 mile run?  Nailed that. 
A result of running faster?  I think it's supposed to be, but I don't really know.  Maybe y'all can enlighten me on that question.

7 miles, 1:41:55, 14:32 pace, 127 avg bpm, 137 Max HR, 156 avg cadence, 1st half pace 14:33, 2nd half pace 14:31
1.  15:04, 124 bpm, 160 spm
2.  14:24, 129 bpm, 158 spm
3.  14:23, 127 bpm, 154 spm
4.  14:16, 126 bpm, 158 spm
5.  14:38, 125 bpm, 148 spm
6.  14:21, 127 bpm, 154 spm
7.  14:42, 126 bpm, 148 spm

HR zone 2 - 120-139 bpm


Like I said yesterday, I won't be able to run until February 24.  Thanks for stopping by!

Wow you nailed that!  I'm impressed with your self control!!   Interesting to see the drop off in your cadence.  I've always found that a higher cadence leads to a higher HR.  

Nice run before your break from running.

Mark B wrote:Excellent job maintaining that low HR. 

Your pace falloff was very minor, which tells me that you're in a position to pick it up at least once a week - maybe more - for a lactate threshold run. I think your body will like it.

nkrichards wrote:

Mark B wrote:Excellent job maintaining that low HR. 

Your pace falloff was very minor, which tells me that you're in a position to pick it up at least once a week - maybe more - for a lactate threshold run. I think your body will like it.

+1  But watch out for Fast Freddy...he's looking for a running partner.

Thanks, y'all.

I can't say the 7 was a 'boring' run, but such a low cadence for a low HR didn't look admirable to me.  Maybe this low HR long run (since I have 23 months before my next marathon) can be the 'monthly test' that Maffetone has in his program, but for different reasons.  I'll have to ponder that.  It would be a goal to be able to get to 163 cadence on a low HR long run, while still at 130.  Which seems to be a second path to getting my 5 mile fast(er) runs of working down the HR, while running 12's.  Both ends against the middle, maybe?  Make any sense?

Freddy will be able to rest by running with me.

-30-

I wanted to run this morning, but there was incoming rain on the radar, so I went to the gym.

I was able to do most of the routines without any pain, except for 2, which was surprising to me.  Pain.  Yes, I said pain, but no heart pain.  Right side rib area muscle, huge bruise, no need to see a doctor.  The details won't be brief. 

Last Tuesday, I did my leg lifts at home, unremarkably.  That evening, I used my right arm/side to get off the floor and I had this stabbing, muscular pain on my right side along the ribs.  It HURT.  If I kept my right upper arm glued to my right side, I could function with little disagreement.  Again, no heart pain, but it felt like I had strained a muscle along the ribs, not between.  A strain about the length and width of your hand.

Wednesday morning was almost uneventful.  I tested range of motion and I could stretch that area by putting my right hand in the air, bend the arm over my head, and touch the top of my left shoulder with my right hand with little discomfort.  The area was still tender to touch, like it's bruised.  Later that morning, I sat down in a hardback chair and noticed I had a swollen area on my back, very close to my muscle strain.  I figured that was swelling that settled there as a result of sleeping.  Right now, I can tell you the swelling there is pretty much gone. 

However, the pain on the right side is there when pressed...like a bruise.  THIS morning (6 days later), I looked in the mirror and saw a bruise the size of a No. 10 envelope on the right side.  Now, keep in mind that the anti-coagulants I take causes even a little bump to bruise.  So, the bruise is more dramatic than anything.

Now you can understand why I could do all my lifting, this morning, without pain, because I evidently don't use those muscles.  So, when did it hurt?  When I was stretching my hip flexors (lay on back, drag right leg over left leg and touch right knee to ground.  Right arm is out, stretched to the right side...OWWWWWWW.)  Easy fix...bend at elbow.  Pain gone.

2nd owwie was stretching the left hip flexor.  Left leg dragged over right leg...OWWWWWW.  I lay on my right side exactly where the bruise is.  Easy fix...don't stretch left hip flexor.  So, there's the result of the right side swelling, which I really didn't know existed until that stretch.

That's my injury.  I guess it happened doing the leg lifts because there's no other function that caused the strain.  Just lucky, I guess.  Thank you.  Thankyouverymuch.

I'll run tomorrow, as if it was Monday.  So.......long run!

Well, I'm sitting in the ER waiting for a doc to evaluate my internal bleeding. Maybe to ultrasound it and drain it. I haven't seen the doc yet.

This morning, I woke up and couldn't lift my right arm. The knot under the scapula was bigger and hard. My bruise that was the size of an envelope yesterday is bigger.

This is not fun. I can only raise my arm to horizontal. The doc at an Urgent care place (because my doc wasn't available until Thursday) thought the big knot was blood bruise.

Needless to say, I didn't run.

I have the result. They're going to keep me overnight and re-check my hemoglobin to ensure that I'm not still leaking blood internally. Further, I am to stop taking Plavix for a month.

Forgot to ask how they'll take care of the stiffness. NO muscle rupture.

In a regular room, now. I'll be giving blood for hemoglobin stats every 4 hours. Next yank is at 10:30 CT.
2:30 pm 12.8
4:30 pm 12.7

A whole 1 point drop will get their attention that I'm leaking internally.

As far as my question of what the doc suggests to clear out the blood and fluid, so I can have some mobility......Time.

If I treat it like a sprained ankle, just a lot of movement. The bruise that is there under the skin, but not in the muscle, is more or less a stain under the skin.

Ohhh...that doesn't sound good at all!  

They put me on Brilinta after my cardiac event.  It was very expensive as there is no generic yet.  I only had to be on it for the first year as I didn't get a stent.  I did have a tendency to bruise easily...and still do...but nothing like you're experiencing!  I'm still on aspirin and I also take fish oil which both have blood thinning effects but nothing like Brilinta or Plavix.

Take care of yourself.  Hope your mobility returns soon....but don't push it.  Take time to heal.

Take care...

Thanks,Nancy. This morning I have much improved range of motion, except at Ground Zero which is the muscle on the right side of the chest, at nipple level.
Yesterday, I had no idea where Ground zero was.

My hemoglobin dropped from 12 to 10, overnight. At 8.5, I will get a transfusion. Therefore, I am spending tonight in the hospital. Tomorrow, I will get a repeat CT scan to see if the hematoma has increased in size. Yesterday's CT was 12-13 cm square hematoma. The drop in hemoglobin would be indicative of continued internal bleeding. Hence, the repeat CT. If the hemoglobin stabilizes and the CT shows no (or little growth), I'm discharged.

The doctor said that Plavix is a low on the spectrum of anti-coagulant meds with Warfarin on the high end. So it's concerning to him that I bleed so much on Plavix.

The bruise is quite the attention getter. I might have to charge people to see it. I can post the photo, but only if y'all are not squeamish. It's not scary, just big.

I will tell y'all that for as many years as I've had exemplary blood levels by donating blood or plasma or platelets, right this minute, I don't have it except for rock star platelet level. So, the internal bleeding is something I can't just dismiss. Just waiting on the Plavix to wear off (72 hours beginning 9 a.m. yesterday).

I am not worried at all, because they don't want to cut on me without cause.

And because I have an extremely deep faith in God. So, I'll be reporting the facts and keep the staff on the floor in good spirits, so they'll be glad to come in my room.

I'll update as there's something to update.

This morning, the hemoglobin was 11.something, so they stopped doing further sticking because it increased.
So, I've been walking the floor, even walked down 6 flights of stairs twice and up 6 one time.

I do that for me, but also for the staff, so they can have a frame of reference of good times, if I tell them I don't feel good, if that happens. That goes along with being jovial with them, as well.

The swelling below and around the right scapula has increased. My range of motion has decreased. I think because of the walking that moves the fluid to places where it's not getting worked.

And the bruise is expanding some. That's all for now.

If I'm reading this correctly it's good news(?)  Your hemoglobin is coming back up and you're up and about.  I'm assuming that the increased swelling, increased bruise size and decreased mobility are part of the healing process and will reverse now that the internal bleeding has stopped.

Love your attitude about life...and your jovial relationship with the staff.  I'm sure they appreciate it!

Something tells me that I'm not going to get any sympathy from anyone on this forum for my pain in the butt resulting from my skiing fall yesterday...nor do I deserve it.  

Take care and keep us posted.

btw...I have no need to see a photo of your bruise but it won't gross me out if you do want to post it.

You'll get sympathy because you were actually doing something when it happened.

And I'll take your assumption as a future course of action.

This morning, my hemoglobin dropped from 11.something to 10.something. The repeat CT scan is scheduled for this morning. A needle suitable for an angiogram (1-1/4" long) has been inserted in my arm.

Haven't scene the doc, but I imagine the longer angiogram needle would be used for mapping out the hematoma area for both diagnostic and surgical.

And I, uh, say this with all of my accounting experience that I can apply to this situation. It's pertinent to the situation isn't it?
Hello?
Is this thing on? [Thump thump]

Info as I know it.

I am getting discharged.

The CT showed on Tuesday the leak was flowing along the right, posterior, 2nd rib. Today's CT showed the leak has slowed and is expected to slow further as the Plavix gets out of my system (72 hours starting Tuesday at 9 a.m.).

Had the hemoglobin dropped to 8.5, then transfusion and full blown surgery with 2 surgeons. One to suck out all of the blood, clots, etc and one to go patch the leak. A week in the hospital.

So, I'll be going home as fast as the paperwork can be processed. I am one happy camper.

ounce wrote:I am getting discharged.

The CT showed on Tuesday the leak was flowing along the right, posterior, 2nd rib.  Today's  CT showed the leak has slowed and is expected to slow further as the Plavix gets out of my system (72 hours starting Tuesday at 9 a.m.).

Had the hemoglobin dropped to 8.5, then transfusion and full blown surgery with 2 surgeons.  One to suck out all of the blood, clots, etc and one to go patch the leak.  A week in the hospital.

So, I'll be going home as fast as the paperwork can be processed.  I am one happy camper.

Well that is good news but behave yourself.  You indicated that the leak has slowed...but you didn't say stopped!  Don't do anything to further aggravate it!!

I bet you have the doctors scratching their heads.  If you can't tolerate Plavix what are the options to keep that stent open and flowing?  I doesn't sound like this was brought on my a traumatic injury.  I know that I was warned to avoid activities that might increase the risk of traumatic injury...especially a head injury.  And I was warned about increased bruising.  I certainly didn't expect something like this as a result of relatively normal activity.  

Good to hear you're headed home.  Take care of yourself and keep us updated.