Building A Better Bumblebee

I got the test idea from Friel.  Have his cycling and triathlon "bibles."  According to Friel's zones, top of Z4 is your LTHR.  Hence Z4 being called "sub-threshold."  Z5a is "super-threshold."  Z5b&Z5c just hurt.  

I use Friel's definition of LTHR for tempo runs other faster stuff.  Maffetone for recovery and easy runs.

Mike MacLellan wrote:I got the test idea from Friel.  Have his cycling and triathlon "bibles."  According to Friel's zones, top of Z4 is your LTHR.  Hence Z4 being called "sub-threshold."  Z5a is "super-threshold."  Z5b&Z5c just hurt.  

I use Friel's definition of LTHR for tempo runs other faster stuff.  Maffetone for recovery and easy runs.

Z5a, b AND c?

Sounds like serious grade inflation to me!

Edit to add: I just took a closer look at his site. It's less grade inflation than a totally different way of measuring zones. I can see why you switch to Maffetone for low-intensity work, though, as I'm not sure how well Friel's table would work.

Belated congrats on your ultra half! 

Julie wrote:Belated congrats on your ultra half! 

Thanks, Julie! It turned out as well as I could have hoped.

Oops, forgot to post this...



Barefoot Run: 3.1 miles on dry asphalt

Weather: Overcast, mild, a little muggy. 60 degrees. Gear: Bare feet, shorts, T. Fuel: Nada, other than a little water (experimenting)

My first run since Beacon Rock, and my first run of summer break. I'll be having to make some adjustments to school year running habits if I'm to be ready for the OC50K in October.

It's been six days since the race, but oof. The first lap was a little rough. I could feel in mostly in my hips and thighs, but also in my chest. My lungs/heart were still trying to figure out why I worked them so hard, so abruptly, last Saturday. It was good motivation to keep my HR low and not think about pace.

The discomfort faded in the first mile or so, and I didn't seem to have any difficulties going out on an empty stomach, with no caffeine. Felt a little odd, but not horribly so.

Oddly, the paces actually weren't that bad, either. I was well below my target for Mile 1, at my target for Mile 2 and just barely over for the last mile. I would have preferred lower, but it's lower than usual, so that's good.

Average HR for entire run: 128

Quick update, while I still have fingernails left...

So I've realized that I have a mere 16 weeks before the Oregon Coast 50K in October. Eep! That's so close!

I've looked at 50K training plans, and they leave me feeling stressed and inadequate. (I'd hoped this pursuit of mine would teach me humility, but this is ridiculous.) I've chatted with Wendy and she suggested an approach she used getting ready for her 100-miler, based on a suggestion she got from an even more experienced ultra runner.

The suggestion? Go without a plan. Just run.

(And there goes the fingernails! nomnomnom... )

Apparently, it wasn't a cruel joke. She meant it. Rough out a weekly mileage progression for the overall period, working up from where I am now (about 30 miles per week) to about 45 miles per week at the peak. And that's it. Work out what you're going to do to hit those miles just before the week starts, and do it. Don't get locked in to having to do it exactly the same way every week, and don't look too far ahead.

Um... oookay...

I can see the logic of it, though it creates a whole different type of angst. But maybe focusing on the forest rather than the trees might actually be a good idea as I try to work in training with other activities this summer. I'll want to get in several runs over 20 miles, and probably up to 22-24 miles, and maybe alternate some more intense work... some on speed, some on hills. But other than that, just run.

I think I can do this. The planner in me is seriously twitchy, but I think I can do this.

She gave me very similar advice a couple weeks back.  Once the initial terror subsides, it's kind of liberating to think of.  You've got plenty of time for the 50k.

Flexibility is nice but I'm like you and need/like structure. 

Speaking of flexibility...make sure you don't plan to run to much next weekend.  Our highs are supposed to be 105 and our lows aren't even very comfortable running weather.  I'm sure your weather will be similar.

The poor bees are not going to be happy.  They are supposed to be pollinating the carrot seed for us.  We're going to have to set out extra water near their hives or they are going to spend all there time carrying water instead of pollinating.

The Leading Ladies 50K plan has not steered me wrong and every other weekend is an easy run of 12 ish and that was nice. I think you'll be fine.

Mike MacLellan wrote:She gave me very similar advice a couple weeks back.  Once the initial terror subsides, it's kind of liberating to think of.  You've got plenty of time for the 50k.

I suppose once you get past the whole head-exploding part, you realize that you'll essentially be structuring your running weeks like you already know how to do, but just flexing the days based on what else is going on. It also tends to encourage more running, as in, oops! Ran an extra few miles this week! Oh well.

nkrichards wrote:Flexibility is nice but I'm like you and need/like structure. 

Speaking of flexibility...make sure you don't plan to run to much next weekend.  Our highs are supposed to be 105 and our lows aren't even very comfortable running weather.  I'm sure your weather will be similar.

The poor bees are not going to be happy.  They are supposed to be pollinating the carrot seed for us.  We're going to have to set out extra water near their hives or they are going to spend all there time carrying water instead of pollinating.

I don't know that I need structure. I remember one training cycle where I ran every single planned run exactly as I was supposed to no matter what, and was devastated when things didn't work out the way they were "supposed" to. It created an expectation and inflexibility that might not have been so good for me.

You made me check the forecast for next weekend, and yipes! Glad they're having the VancouverUSA marathon THIS weekend. A low of 70 and high around 100 would be pretty awful for racing a marathon. It doesn't help that Vancouver's course has a lot of direct sun exposure. Ugh.

Julie wrote:The Leading Ladies 50K plan has not steered me wrong and every other weekend is an easy run of 12 ish and that was nice. I think you'll be fine.

I'll have to check that plan. What throws me off is the short turnaround time. Most plans want me up near 20 miles NOW, which would be a big jump. I think I'm mostly recovered from my extra-hard effort at Beacon Rock, but still. I'd like to work up to it.

One other aspect of "working up" is determining whether my body can handle doing these longer runs in my sandals. Time will tell, and they might work great. But if it proves too much, the sandals will get sidelined for something with a bit more support.

Low HR Run: 12.22 miles

Weather: Partly cloudy, mild. 54 degrees. Gear: Luna sandals, shorts, T, handheld. Fuel: Nothing. No breakfast, no coffee, no refueling. Only some water.

I wasn't able to get in a run yesterday so I took my first early morning summer run today. I went as long as I thought I could manage, just a week after my big race, and I experimented by taking no food or caffeine beforehand. I think it slowed me down -- lots of 13+ minute miles -- but I'm hoping it stimulates fat burning (?) and is worth it. One benefit is a lack of stomach upset I get sometimes when I take coffee and a small snack before heading out.

I also wore my Lunas, wondering if I'm going to have to relegate them to no more than sorta-long runs if I'm going to accomplish the training I'm going to need to hit race cutoffs in October. Part of me is sad about that possibility, and I could be wrong, but I need to be prepared for that possibility.

The run itself was nice. I was out the door about 5:30 a.m. and saw only a few people. Heard lots of birds, and got to see a good-sized doe at one point. That was nice.

Walked first and last 5 minutes. Average HR for entire run: 131

Jeez, I thought I was writing that post with all of the no eatin' nuffin before the run.

I'm going to bet that if you had carried something that you might've eaten or drank during any other prior longish run, that you would not have been as sluggish.  Try another run like that and see what happens when you eat a little something upon the onset of sluggish feeling or split.  You said yourself the run was 'nice,' so your legs weren't hurting for fuel.  So, anything you eat during the run wouldn't help your legs.

As far as to whether you burned some fat or more fat, IMO it depends on how many complex carbs you ate on Saturday.

12 miles at 54 degrees.  Ah, memories.

ounce wrote:Jeez, I thought I was writing that post with all of the no eatin' nuffin before the run.

I'm going to bet that if you had carried something that you might've eaten or drank during any other prior longish run, that you would not have been as sluggish.  Try another run like that and see what happens when you eat a little something upon the onset of sluggish feeling or split.  You said yourself the run was 'nice,' so your legs weren't hurting for fuel.  So, anything you eat during the run wouldn't help your legs.

As far as to whether you burned some fat or more fat, IMO it depends on how many complex carbs you ate on Saturday.

12 miles at 54 degrees.  Ah, memories.

I wasn't attempting to push the legs, so I was close the fat-burnign zone, anyway, I think. I do wonder it will help over time, and what sort of bounce back I can expect. I did this once before on a full low car diet, and while I started slow, my body adapted fairly quickly. (The fact that this was in the cycle that produced my marathon PR is not lost on me.)

It's been a busy Monday. Even though my ankles are sore after the 12-miler (partially sandals, maybe partially lingering soreness from running up and down mountains a week ago), I did...


Walk: 2.8 miles

Weather: Sunny, not yet too warm. Gear: Altra Instincts

Working the kinks out of my feet and ankles and adding to my mileage with a walk to and from the local library, showing Alec how to get there for weekly D&D sessions. Not a bad walk, though I suspect he'd rather ride a bike with his friends.

So, later...

Bike Ride: 2.9 miles

Yes. Me. A bike ride.

Back to the library, this time showing Alec the ropes on getting their on a bike. This is how he'll probably do it, riding with friends, and it's a pretty straightforward ride.

I spun it up on the way back and hit 26 mph, which was fun, but I'm astounded at how much I hate this bike. Sheer. Utter. Hatred. I had a perfectly wonderful road bike that fit me like a glove since I got it when I was 15 (it was a Schwinn LeTour, and I used to outsprint cars at stop lights on it), but I stupidly got rid of it after a decade of use because it was "old." Instead, I got this weird hybrid (Diamondback Outback) that's sotra road sorta trail -- and good at neither. It hardly ever gets ridden, unless I'm in a mood to jump curbs.


Sigh....
(This isn't my old bike, but it's the same year and and color. Except mind had black cotton tape on the handlebars.)

I should get me a bike, but I'd hate carting it around to where I would ride it.  Houston drivers are not kind to riders.  I could find an old one cheap, like one used by HPD and bought for salvage.  The helmet would probably cost more than the bike.

ounce wrote:I should get me a bike, but I'd hate carting it around to where I would ride it.  Houston drivers are not kind to riders.  I could find an old one cheap, like one used by HPD and bought for salvage.  The helmet would probably cost more than the bike.

Vancouver isn't the most bike-friendly place, either, which would surprise people familiar with bike-crazy Portland across the river. Still, it's getting a little better... slowly.

---

I had planned to do a run this morning, the second half of a back-to-back, but I was more sore than I should have been. I'm guessing I'm not quite recovered enough from Beacon Rock to push it. So I took today off and will get back to it tomorrow. My plan is to get about 30 miles in this week, and I've racked up 15 already, so that should be quite doable.

(I'm a little gun shy because my tendon problems last year happened when I tried to ramp up the miles too fast and ignored the warning signs.)

This may also mean that the sandals need to be used for short-to-medium distances... but I'm not quite ready to throw in the towel yet. If they can help get my feet and ankles stronger, it'd be a huge help when I got extra long on trails.

Call it a 'step back' week and run 24, if you feel good enough.  As far as 30 mile week being reduced to 24, I won't say a word if you won't.

ounce wrote:Call it a 'step back' week and run 24, if you feel good enough.  As far as 30 mile week being reduced to 24, I won't say a word if you won't.

:whispers: Okay, Ounce, sounds like a plan. I keep wanting to do more, but if I did what part of my brain wants, I'd be way over my target for the week.

Barefoot Run: 3.1 miles on dry asphalt

Weather: Partly cloudy, mild, muggy. 63° Gear: Bare feet, shorts, T. Fuel: Zilch. Not even coffee.

Another morning run, experimenting with running without caffeine or a handy blood sugar spike. I probably would have experienced a slowdown today, but for some odd reason my legs wouldn't slow down. I held a near-even pace the entire time (11:19, 11:23, 11:28) while my average HR drifted up from 128 to 137. Ahem. So, not ideal, but at least I've got an excuse, right?

I went barefoot, and the first lap was creaky. Second lap got better. Third lap and onward were clear. I noticed the HR drifting up around 13 minutes in, but simply tried to keep it from jumping too high.

Average HR for entire run: 134

Mark B wrote:Barefoot Run: 3.1 miles on dry asphalt

Weather: Partly cloudy, mild, muggy. 63° Gear: Bare feet, shorts, T. Fuel: Zilch. Not even coffee.

Another morning run, experimenting with running without caffeine or a handy blood sugar spike. I probably would have experienced a slowdown today, but for some odd reason my legs wouldn't slow down. I held a near-even pace the entire time (11:19, 11:23, 11:28) while my average HR drifted up from 128 to 137. Ahem. So, not ideal, but at least I've got an excuse, right?

I went barefoot, and the first lap was creaky. Second lap got better. Third lap and onward were clear. I noticed the HR drifting up around 13 minutes in, but simply tried to keep it from jumping too high.

Average HR for entire run: 134

I love the experimentation.  Maybe the effects of caffeine or sugar in the morning don't relate to how well your legs work?  Your heart would probably adjust downward its effort, if you keep staying away from caffeine and sugar.

Did you have a normal breakfast afterwards and did you notice any differences up to 2 hours after breakfast?  Inquiring mind wants to know.

ounce wrote:

Mark B wrote:Barefoot Run: 3.1 miles on dry asphalt

Weather: Partly cloudy, mild, muggy. 63° Gear: Bare feet, shorts, T. Fuel: Zilch. Not even coffee.

Another morning run, experimenting with running without caffeine or a handy blood sugar spike. I probably would have experienced a slowdown today, but for some odd reason my legs wouldn't slow down. I held a near-even pace the entire time (11:19, 11:23, 11:28) while my average HR drifted up from 128 to 137. Ahem. So, not ideal, but at least I've got an excuse, right?

I went barefoot, and the first lap was creaky. Second lap got better. Third lap and onward were clear. I noticed the HR drifting up around 13 minutes in, but simply tried to keep it from jumping too high.

Average HR for entire run: 134

I love the experimentation.  Maybe the effects of caffeine or sugar in the morning don't relate to how well your legs work?  Your heart would probably adjust downward its effort, if you keep staying away from caffeine and sugar.

Did you have a normal breakfast afterwards and did you notice any differences up to 2 hours after breakfast?  Inquiring mind wants to know.

My guess is that my body will adapt (probably fairly quickly) to the lack of caffeine or blood sugar bump. The muscles didn't mind, but the systemic strain was evident in how the HR edged up. (Still, it was among the faster runs I've done lately without consciously trying to go fast, so that's a factor, too.)

I had a normal breakfast and felt no different afterwards. I did notice on Monday, after my longer run, that I was a little more cranky than usual. Or, at least that's what my family tells me.

Mark B wrote:

ounce wrote:

Mark B wrote:Barefoot Run: 3.1 miles on dry asphalt

Weather: Partly cloudy, mild, muggy. 63° Gear: Bare feet, shorts, T. Fuel: Zilch. Not even coffee.

Another morning run, experimenting with running without caffeine or a handy blood sugar spike. I probably would have experienced a slowdown today, but for some odd reason my legs wouldn't slow down. I held a near-even pace the entire time (11:19, 11:23, 11:28) while my average HR drifted up from 128 to 137. Ahem. So, not ideal, but at least I've got an excuse, right?

I went barefoot, and the first lap was creaky. Second lap got better. Third lap and onward were clear. I noticed the HR drifting up around 13 minutes in, but simply tried to keep it from jumping too high.

Average HR for entire run: 134

I love the experimentation.  Maybe the effects of caffeine or sugar in the morning don't relate to how well your legs work?  Your heart would probably adjust downward its effort, if you keep staying away from caffeine and sugar.

Did you have a normal breakfast afterwards and did you notice any differences up to 2 hours after breakfast?  Inquiring mind wants to know.

My guess is that my body will adapt (probably fairly quickly) to the lack of caffeine or blood sugar bump. The muscles didn't mind, but the systemic strain was evident in how the HR edged up. (Still, it was among the faster runs I've done lately without consciously trying to go fast, so that's a factor, too.)

I had a normal breakfast and felt no different afterwards. I did notice on Monday, after my longer run, that I was a little more cranky than usual. Or, at least that's what my family tells me.

Low HR Run: 4.1 miles

Weather: Sunny, warming. 63° Gear: Sandals, shorts, T, handheld. Fuel: Nothing (not even caffeine) before, water during

Keeping at this early running thing, and trying it without fuel or coffee beforehand. It's partly to see if it'll help me physiologically, but mainly because I want to be able to get out the door faster on these morning runs. Why get up earlier than I have to? (Yep. Lazy.)

I'd planned 4 to 6 miles (doing the math in my head aiming for about 30 miles total this week), leaned toward 4... but wast tempted to extend it when I hit my turnaround point. I started out, then changed my mind and did a U-turn. Probably a good idea. I'm still recovering, and the sun was already getting hot. (We're starting a heat wave so big they don't know when it's going to end.)


Did I ever mention we don't have air conditioning? This ought to be fun... not. (I also work on the Fourth of July, and it hasn't rained here in weeks, so I imagine the scanner will be busy with the county burning up.)

I focused on keeping my HR down, with some success, and on keeping relaxed. I've noticed that I can sometimes try to stick the landing, and that's not a good idea. Ow. Immediate feedback, even in sandals.

Pace was slower, but that's no surprise.

Walked first and last 5 minutes. Average HR for entire run: 123

Mark B wrote:Low HR Run: 4.1 miles

Weather: Sunny, warming. 63° Gear: Sandals, shorts, T, handheld. Fuel: Nothing (not even caffeine) before, water during

Keeping at this early running thing, and trying it without fuel or coffee beforehand. It's partly to see if it'll help me physiologically, but mainly because I want to be able to get out the door faster on these morning runs. Why get up earlier than I have to? (Yep. Lazy.)

I'd planned 4 to 6 miles (doing the math in my head aiming for about 30 miles total this week), leaned toward 4... but wast tempted to extend it when I hit my turnaround point. I started out, then changed my mind and did a U-turn. Probably a good idea. I'm still recovering, and the sun was already getting hot. (We're starting a heat wave so big they don't know when it's going to end.)


Did I ever mention we don't have air conditioning? This ought to be fun... not. (I also work on the Fourth of July, and it hasn't rained here in weeks, so I imagine the scanner will be busy with the county burning up.)

I focused on keeping my HR down, with some success, and on keeping relaxed. I've noticed that I can sometimes try to stick the landing, and that's not a good idea. Ow. Immediate feedback, even in sandals.

Pace was slower, but that's no surprise.

Walked first and last 5 minutes. Average HR for entire run: 123

NO A/C?!?!?!?!  Yes, you've mentioned that before.  Looking at your prognostication, I know 90+ is hot (although the NWS calls 95 hot, but what do they know?), but y'all are cooling down into the 60's each night.  That tends to indicate y'all are pretty low humidity, even though 60 degree lows is above the norm.  Window unit A/C?  Lemonade?  Mint Julep?  Trash can wine?  Fire up the grill?  At least your electric bill won't go berserk!

I'm sad that you'll have to go through all that heat, since you don't have A/C.  Just find solace in knowing that Houston hasn't hit 95 degrees yet, this year, we have a 658 day streak of no 100 degree days, & we're +10" on rain this year.  Plus, when it gets into the 90's here, it doesn't get below 75 for a low temp.

Feel better?  NEXT!

ounce wrote:NO A/C?!?!?!?!  Yes, you've mentioned that before.  Looking at your prognostication, I know 90+ is hot (although the NWS calls 95 hot, but what do they know?), but y'all are cooling down into the 60's each night.  That tends to indicate y'all are pretty low humidity, even though 60 degree lows is above the norm.  Window unit A/C?  Lemonade?  Mint Julep?  Trash can wine?  Fire up the grill?  At least your electric bill won't go berserk!

I'm sad that you'll have to go through all that heat, since you don't have A/C.  Just find solace in knowing that Houston hasn't hit 95 degrees yet, this year, we have a 658 day streak of no 100 degree days, & we're +10" on rain this year.  Plus, when it gets into the 90's here, it doesn't get below 75 for a low temp.

Feel better?  NEXT!

So not surprised. So, what was the population of Houston before a/c was invented, anyway?

Anyway, it's usually fine around here in the summer. But we do get heat spikes (our record high is 108) from time to time, and there's a concern with our very warm winter and warm and dry spring that it's going to be a bad one this year. And these hot spells don't usually come quite so early.

I will note for the record that we're looking at two days with lows in the upper 60s, which for here is quite warm. Not like where I used to live in NorCal, where they're looking at lows in the mid- to upper-70s and highs around 110 over the next week or so. A bit early in the year for those temps, but they're not unheard of. I didn't have central air when I lived there (or even have a/c in my car), but I did have a swamp cooler. That helped a bit, until it cracked 110.