Breaking Away

Seth Harrison wrote:Mark, welcome back. Sorry to read about the rough start to the trip, but it looks like it all turned out well, and the photos are beautiful. I hope you all had a good time.

As for the trail marathon training, since I do the great majority of my running on trails, the only thing I'd add is that there's not much you need to do differently, especially if the marathon is on smooth, non-technical trails. Otherwise, I'd say just get out on the trails as much as possible, which it looks like you're already doing. I don't think you need to over-think this training and change too much of your routine. I think you're going to really enjoy this.

Thanks, Seth. Overthink things, me? P'shaw!

I think there are a few trickier parts in Tecumseh, but the trails out here ought to be good practice. I may work in some hill repeats (there's a particularly steep stretch of road near my house that would work well), do my long runs on trails and gravitate toward hillier routes for non-recovery runs. I'd love to do more runs on trails, but that's not practical given my schedule (especially when I'm doing runs on dark October mornings).[/quote]

Hey Mark you said that there will be parts of Tecumseh that may be tricky (Technical?), so I was thinking about doing runs on some very technical trails since part of the JFK is very technical and here was Kevin's responds to it:

" So, when I was planning to run my first JFK50, I stopped in to our local Fleet Feet store run by Phil Fenty (father of Adrian Fenty, recent one-term Mayor of DC). There's a photo of Phil running WS100 behind the counter (a race he likes) and he's also run the JFK50 (a race he doesn't like). I mentioned I was going to try to run the AT portion of the race course several times over the summer just to get a feel for it. He made a look that was half and half ... "Nobody does that", he said. "Too much risk of injury." After running it, I agree.

It's important that you learn how to run trails. It's partly foot lift but mostly about concentration. Take a few spills and you'll get the idea. It's not important -- and in fact risky -- to train on technical trails. [[Experienced trail runners may benefit from training on technically challenging trails -- but accomplished road runners looking to break into the trail circuit would be well-advised to train on less challenging trails with good footing.]] You increase the risk of injury without learning anything more than a non-technical trail run can teach you (about foot lift and concentration). So take it from Phil [ ] and me ... don't seek out trails with difficult footing, boulders, rocks hidden by leaves, etc. Rather, run trails with good footing and possibly some fairly steep hills both up and down -- it will serve you well, in terms of learning the unique skills of trail running, without putting your knees, ankles, wrists, elbows and face at undue risk. Most of all, enjoy yourself!"

I know you said you will be limited to how much trail running you will be doing and your marathon might be less technical then what I have to run on the AT at JFK but I think the above advice is sound for runners like us who are making the switch from the roads to the trails. Again just something to think about.

EDIT: OOOOOOOPS. Schuey's quotes didn't work and I thought I caught him posting thinking this was his blog. Hopefully no one is ninja quoting me right now....

Schuey wrote:Hey Mark you said that there will be parts of Tecumseh that may be tricky (Technical?), so I was thinking about doing runs on some very technical trails since part of the JFK is very technical and here was Kevin's responds to it:

KB Fitz wrote:" So, when I was planning to run my first JFK50, I stopped in to our local Fleet Feet store run by Phil Fenty (father of Adrian Fenty, recent one-term Mayor of DC). There's a photo of Phil running WS100 behind the counter (a race he likes) and he's also run the JFK50 (a race he doesn't like). I mentioned I was going to try to run the AT portion of the race course several times over the summer just to get a feel for it. He made a look that was half and half ... "Nobody does that", he said. "Too much risk of injury." After running it, I agree.

It's important that you learn how to run trails. It's partly foot lift but mostly about concentration. Take a few spills and you'll get the idea. It's not important -- and in fact risky -- to train on technical trails. [[Experienced trail runners may benefit from training on technically challenging trails -- but accomplished road runners looking to break into the trail circuit would be well-advised to train on less challenging trails with good footing.]] You increase the risk of injury without learning anything more than a non-technical trail run can teach you (about foot lift and concentration). So take it from Phil [ ] and me ... don't seek out trails with difficult footing, boulders, rocks hidden by leaves, etc. Rather, run trails with good footing and possibly some fairly steep hills both up and down -- it will serve you well, in terms of learning the unique skills of trail running, without putting your knees, ankles, wrists, elbows and face at undue risk. Most of all, enjoy yourself!"

I know you said you will be limited to how much trail running you will be doing and your marathon might be less technical then what I have to run on the AT at JFK but I think the above advice is sound for runners like us who are making the switch from the roads to the trails. Again just something to think about.

Thanks for that, Schuey. I think Kevin makes some great points, as do you. I've been told that there are leaf-covered rocks at Tecumseh, so the rockier sections of local trails will be good practice for me keeping my head in the game. Most of my usual trails, though, are not overly technical.

Mike MacLellan wrote:EDIT: OOOOOOOPS. Schuey's quotes didn't work and I thought I caught him posting thinking this was his blog. Hopefully no one is ninja quoting me right now....

It's all about the tags, Mike, and yes: You can do a quote within a quote. I have no mad coding skills, however; I just kept fooling around and hitting "Preview" until I got it the way I wanted it to look.

Ninja quoting? Hm. As a former reporter, I kind of like the sound of that.

Ha, I know that! On second glance, I just read his post wrong. Fail.

Hill Run (!) 4.58 5.3 miles

Weather: Sunny, mild but humid. 56 degrees, 93% humidity. Gear: Testers, shorts, T. Fuel: Carrots and coffee before. Didn't take water.

An ultra guy I know offered me a bit of advice on getting ready for Tecumseh the other day: "Run hills until you cannot stand the sight of one and then run them some more."

Well, gee. That sounds like fun.

Oh well. I've always known that I'd benefit from more hill work, and several of my routes (Llama Ridge, Salmon Creek Greenway) include some moderate hills - and some trail runs in Forest Park have got some big climbs. But I've shied away from hill repeats, partly because it would interfere with low HR training and partly because, well, it's hard!

Well, no more. If I'm going to pursue the type of running that interests me, I need to be able to climb - and descend - a lot better than I do now. So I'll be trying to work in hillwork into the mix.

Luckily for me, there's a decent hill about a mile and a half from my house. A single 1.2-mile circuit up, over, down and back up, over and down again gives me 210 feet of gain. I did two of those circuits this morning without walking any part of the climb, pushing over the top and floating down the other side. It was challenging but not impossible, and the traffic wasn't too bad. This might become a staple, with an increasing number of circuits as time goes on.

Here's an elevation chart from the run (it looks and feels steeper when you're doing it, up to about a 15% grade, if I'm reading mapmyrun right).



One thing that was a little different was that I came back dripping with sweat. It might have been the humidity - there was even some ground fog at one point - or the extra intensity of the hill. Whatever the cause, the last time I was this drenched, I was running in Illinois!

An ultra guy I know offered me a bit of advice on getting ready for
Tecumseh the other day: "Run hills until you cannot stand the sight of
one and then run them some more."

This scares me. I don't think I know what a good steep hill is like. I just don't have them near me. I mean 3 5 6% grade seems like a joke compared to what you and others around here have.

Nice job and advice seems appropriate for your goal!

Kenny B. wrote:

Mark B wrote:An ultra guy I know offered me a bit of advice on getting ready for
Tecumseh the other day: "Run hills until you cannot stand the sight of
one and then run them some more."

This scares me. I don't think I know what a good steep hill is like. I just don't have them near me. I mean 3 5 6% grade seems like a joke compared to what you and others around here have.

Nice job and advice seems appropriate for your goal!

It scares me, too, Kenny. I learned a lot about running mountains in June when I did that 25K trail race in the Columbia River Gorge (3,700 feet of vertical!). Mainly, I realized I need a LOT of conditioning before I am strong enough to effectively climb - and maybe even more importantly, descend. So I'm focusing on form and running those downhill stretches as well as I can.

As for location, even small hills can help. It's not like I have a 3,000-foot mountain right outside my door, like Geoff Roes does. But I can rack up some decent cumulative elevation gain and loss without getting in the car and driving to an honest-to-gosh mountain if I do repeats up and down the smaller (150-200') hills near my house. I can do bigger climbs on my weekend long runs, when I have more time and flexibility.

Are you running Eugen marathon next year? I am 60% certain running it.

How is the weather race day typically?

Jerry wrote:Are you running Eugene marathon next year? I am 60% certain running it.

How is the weather race day typically?

Cool! You'll love Eugene. Race day weather usually starts in the upper 30s or 40s and, depending on cloud cover, can warm as much as to the 60s by the time you'd be done. If it rains (which has only happened once since they started the marathon in 2007), it'll mean a narrower range of temperatures - probably starting in the mid- to upper 40s and maybe climbing into the 50s. Rain in Eugene can last for hours, but it's light by comparison to the gully-washers you folks get in Texas.

I won't be running Eugene (I've given up road marathons for now), but maybe we can find a way to hook up before or after the race in the Portland area.

Easy Run: About 9 miles

Weather: Overcast, mild, a little muggy. 60 degrees, 88% humidity. Gear: Testers, shorts, T. Fuel: Carrots and coffee before. Carried water with nuun during.

I could tell my legs were still a little tired from my hill workout this morning as I went out on my Llama Ridge route, but they didn't rebel, so I pushed the run to 9 miles. I was running pretty smoothly, which was nice, but I started to worry myself when I kept eying the ditches and started wondering if it'd be better training if I ran in them instead! Hmm....

Disaster strikes: About 2 miles total (1 mile running, 1 mile limping back)

I was just getting warmed up on what seemed like the makings of a wonderful long trail run this morning when WHAM!! -- I rolled my right ankle, bad. I felt a pop, and the top/side of my foot is now swollen and bruised.

This. does. not. bode. well.

Mark B wrote:This. does. not. bode. well.

But, sorry to say, it does bode about normal for trail runners. Ice, NSAIDs and rest are now your good buddies. You'll heal. It's just a matter of how long. Hopefully, this unfortunately common incident will not give new meaning to the title of your blog. If it doesn't settle down within a few days, see a doc to make sure nothing has ... well ... broken away.

Ouch.

Sorry to hear that.

What Kevin said...

Mark B wrote:Disaster strikes: About 2 miles total (1 mile running, 1 mile limping back)

I was just getting warmed up on what seemed like the makings of a wonderful long trail run this morning when WHAM!! -- I rolled my right ankle, bad. I felt a pop, and the top/side of my foot is now swollen and bruised.

This. does. not. bode. well.

I'm so sorry to read this Mark. The only thing I can say is that when I turned my ankle on a trail in Memphis earlier this year while training for Boston, it healed much faster than I ever dreamed it would. I hope yours does the same.
Good luck!!!

KBFitz wrote:

Mark B wrote:This. does. not. bode. well.

But, sorry to say, it does bode about normal for trail runners. Ice, NSAIDs and rest are now your good buddies. You'll heal. It's just a matter of how long. Hopefully, this unfortunately common incident will not give new meaning to the title of your blog. If it doesn't settle down within a few days, see a doc to make sure nothing has ... well ... broken away.

I suppose you're right, Kevin. I was close to heading to the ER this morning, but the throbbing subsided after an hour or so. I was able to walk a bit on it (painfully) at the county fair and I plan to baby it for the rest of the night.

What freaked (freaks?) me out is that I haven't hurt this ankle since I rolled it so hard a few years ago that I broke bone chips off my calcaneal-cuboid joint. So the possibility of something "breaking away" is a very real concern.

Michael Enright wrote:Ouch.

Sorry to hear that.

What Kevin said...

Thanks, Michael. I never thought I'd find a good use for the "flame on" emoticon. But if fits.

Seth Harrison wrote:

Mark B wrote:Disaster strikes: About 2 miles total (1 mile running, 1 mile limping back)

I was just getting warmed up on what seemed like the makings of a wonderful long trail run this morning when WHAM!! -- I rolled my right ankle, bad. I felt a pop, and the top/side of my foot is now swollen and bruised.

This. does. not. bode. well.

I'm so sorry to read this Mark. The only thing I can say is that when I turned my ankle on a trail in Memphis earlier this year while training for Boston, it healed much faster than I ever dreamed it would. I hope yours does the same.
Good luck!!!

Thanks, Seth. I'm a fairly fast healer, so we'll see what the next few days hold. I'm more than willing to be pleasantly surprised.

Dang, Mark, that's not a good thing to read when I come in for an update. At least that hill run looked like a really solid training tool. Hope you'll be able to get back to it in no time flat. Just remember to err on the side of caution and not make this one any worse than it already is.

Mike MacLellan wrote:Dang, Mark, that's not a good thing to read when I come in for an update. At least that hill run looked like a really solid training tool. Hope you'll be able to get back to it in no time flat. Just remember to err on the side of caution and not make this one any worse than it already is.

Sorry, Mike. I wish I could give you a better update. That nearby hill should work very well for repeats. It's not one big huge climb, but it's long enough and easy enough to get a decent amount of elevation by doing it over and over and over....

Here's what it looked like this morning, from two angles. (Note: My feet aren't exactly standard issue, so don't freak out at their general shape... unless you're concerned that Nike is building shoes based on my shape, not yours. Then, feel free to panic. )




They're not supposed to be this color, are they? I ask because, well... I don't think my ankles have ever bruised like this, even when I've broken them!

Ouch! Wish I had something more profound or helpful (or original - see Mike's comment). All I've got is OUCH!

Wow, Mark sorry that happened. The pics look tough too! Hope the swelling goes down and the healing comes quickly! The swelling looks like it's in an area away from the ankle and more toward the tarsal/metatarsal area. Painful regardless of location.

Damn Mark - that really sucks. Last time my ankle looked like that I did have a hairline fracture in there somewhere. It really didn't take that long to bounce back, but if I remember right I was non weight-bearing for several days. I know it was a throbbing SOB for a day or two though...

Hang in there.

That's a lot of inflammation Mark. I hope you're planning on having it looked at.

Looks much like a soccer injury. Sorry, first thing in my mind and couldn't resist.

Glenn wrote:Ouch! Wish I had something more profound or helpful (or original - see Mike's comment). All I've got is OUCH!

jon c wrote:Wow, Mark sorry that happened. The pics look tough too! Hope the swelling goes down and the healing comes quickly! The swelling looks like it's in an area away from the ankle and more toward the tarsal/metatarsal area. Painful regardless of location.

John Kilpatrick wrote:Damn Mark - that really sucks. Last time my ankle looked like that I did have a hairline fracture in there somewhere. It really didn't take that long to bounce back, but if I remember right I was non weight-bearing for several days. I know it was a throbbing SOB for a day or two though...

Hang in there.

Seth Harrison wrote:That's a lot of inflammation Mark. I hope you're planning on having it looked at.

Jerry wrote:Looks much like a soccer injury. Sorry, first thing in my mind and couldn't resist.

Thanks, everybody. It looks a lot worse than it is, apparently. I went to the doctor today and they did X-rays of the ankle and foot and found no sign of a fracture. Woot!

The doctor (a PA) actually seemed a little surprised by the negative results on the X-rays - considering how swollen and colorful my foot is - and she's also surprised by how her poking and prodding didn't elicit anything other than mild to moderate discomfort.

Diagnosis: Sprain, though it's hard to tell how bad. At least nothing seems to have pulled off with a chunk of bone. The Rx is more RICE, with ibuprofen, and I'll dust off my boot and wear that for the next week. She thinks it'll be a lot better by then. (Crossing fingers).

Considering the options, I guess that's about the best I could hope for. I'm hoping my tendency to heal fast keeps up.

Finally, just for giggles... (or gasps of horror), I snapped a photo of the X-ray of my oddly-shaped foot. It's the one on the left; I posted a "normal" foot X-ray on the right. Quite the difference, eh?



No wonder podiatrists always looked like this after looking at my feet.

I'm very glad to see that it's nothing more than a sprain. Good new!
That is one odd shaped foot! I'm amazed that it works!

Seth Harrison wrote:I'm very glad to see that it's nothing more than a sprain. Good news!
That is one odd shaped foot! I'm amazed that it works!

This doc was surprisingly sanguine about that foot shape. I joked that it looked like something had crushed it and she said, nah... it looks more like somebody pulled the toes in. Which, in fact, is exactly what happened when I was a kid. My feet stuck out funny, and the pediatrician told my parents to punch holes in my little baby shoes and tie my toes together to get my legs to twist the right way... except... it succeeded only in warping my metatarsals. Oops.