Building A Better Bumblebee

ounce wrote:I'll settle for doing 10's or 11's.  But that's the target for next year!

So, uh, Mark, what do you think of me running (not racing) a 50K 10 weeks before a marathon (both with similar flat terrain), then reducing the mileage for recovery for 4 weeks, then race a 30K at 5 weeks before, then a 20 miler 3 weeks before, then taper?

As much as most programs don't call for running a marathon before the marathon for risk of injury, but I kinda think I need to run farther so a marathon isn't as big a deal.  (I haven't eaten much today, so that may be affecting my judgement)

Also, I've read some reviews on Altras and some people are disappointed with the build quality, due to the sides of the uppers blowing out at less than 100 miles.  This is on the trail shoes.

Dunno about the 50K thing, but I do have some friends here who are running Boston that did a trail 50K last weekend (in a few inches of white stuff which is now gone - yay!).  They believe in that, but I believe in an overall base with the raced 30K and a 20 2-3 wks out.  Also 2 additional 20-22 milers if time allows.

ounce wrote:I'll settle for doing 10's or 11's.  But that's the target for next year!

So, uh, Mark, what do you think of me running (not racing) a 50K 10 weeks before a marathon (both with similar flat terrain), then reducing the mileage for recovery for 4 weeks, then race a 30K at 5 weeks before, then a 20 miler 3 weeks before, then taper?

As much as most programs don't call for running a marathon before the marathon for risk of injury, but I kinda think I need to run farther so a marathon isn't as big a deal.  (I haven't eaten much today, so that may be affecting my judgement)

Also, I've read some reviews on Altras and some people are disappointed with the build quality, due to the sides of the uppers blowing out at less than 100 miles.  This is on the trail shoes.

That's an interesting notion, Ounce. If you had trained consistently and were ready for the 50K, it might work. You'd be at an elevated risk of suffering an overtraining injury, but it's possible.

On the other hand, one thing I read in Maffetone talked about taking steps to adjust your perception of time while exercising, and how that can help get over a mental hump. In the example he talked about, he had a person do a long warm-up walk before their long training run and then end with a long cool down walk to extend the period of the session beyond their estimated finish time in the marathon. That took the novelty out of the time (if not the distance), removing it as a factor.


Michele makes some good points, as well.

As for shoes, Altra is notorious for its poor workmanship and materials. In fact, remember those new shoes I got? I had to send them back (waiting on replacements) because of bad stitching work that was creating a hot spot on the edge of my foot. I've had a heel unit turn to mush on one side, contributing to an overuse injury I had.

And the uppers? Well, let me put it this way:



These are my current running shoes, purchased in April 2014 and worn initially only casually until I wrapped up my sandals experiment. I had the same ripping problem with an earlier pair of the same model. Bad materials and poor design.

The thing is, the ripping is pretty much only a cosmetic problem. The shoes still functioned fine. (I logged 705 miles on the first pair.) I'd just duct tape the holes closed and keep going.

My hopes are they're using better materials in their latest version. Provided they can sew them together properly.

Have you tried these:  http://shop.topoathletic.com/mens/

My friend here who likes Altra shoes loves these.

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Have you tried these:  http://shop.topoathletic.com/mens/

My friend here who likes Altra shoes loves these.

No, I haven't. I'd never even heard of them before. Thanks for the link!

They look like a possible alternative to Altras, for sure.

Trails - 3.1 miles with Alita

Weather: Overcast and cool. 40° Gear: Lone Peak 2s, street clothes.

Alita had done some running on her own the past couple of days (woot!), so we opted for a hike in our neighborhood forest. We stopped a number of times to photograph cool/green/wet things, so the paces are slower than they actually were. We did a bit of exploring, with me showing her more of the side trails. The trails are muddy in some parts but an order of magnitude better than they were before the big trail rehab project they did here.

Long Run/Walk: 7.56 miles

Weather: Gray, chilly, breezy. 39-42° with a little drizzle. Gear: Altra Instinct 1.5s (last run in them), pants, T, pullover, hat, gloves (on/off) Fuel: carried nuun in handheld

Well, that didn't go as planned.

I'd wanted to try to stretch out a long road run to 10 miles this morning, to ease up the mileage. I did it despite the fact that I STILL don't have my replacement road shoes (the shoe store screwed on on size ordering on the replacements for the defective pair I bought), but I really wanted to start stretching out the miles, so I tried it.

That wasn't such a good idea. I was maybe 3 miles in when I got painful twinge in my right knee. Huh? My knees pretty much never give me trouble. I slowed, tried to adjust my stride, kept doing for another quarter mile or so... and it kept twinging. Okay, then. No need to be stupid.

Except I was on an out-and-back route with no shortcut home. Crap.

I walked a bit, and once the sensation in the knee subsided, I tried jogging. It worked okay, and I was able to work my way partway home before I hit a hill and had to walk for HR anyway. By the time I got to the top, I'd cooled down so much that starting running again seemed like a bad idea. So I walked the last 1.5 miles in. Didn't feel all that great with twinges in other parts popping up.

I blame the old worn out shoes. They are now retired. Sigh. Hope the new ones come in soon.

One other thing: I was afraid I'd overdressed, but I was glad for the extra insulation when I switched to a walk. This damp chill goes right through you. Brr.

Average HR for entire affair: 124

I toss my shoes as soon as that happens - so yes, probably worn out shoes.

By the way, if you use the code: TOPOALLEN20 you can get 20% off Topo shoes.

I find it so nice when some piece of the legs puts up a red flag when a pair has lived out their running usefulness and once that's fixed, the orchestra is back at the same point in the song.

Misty and cold is not very nice weather.

Thanks on the Altras and I'll take a look at Miche1e's link.  I need to find some trail shoes that have about a 4mm or less drop between front and back that's no taller than 18mm or so.  Hokas are a bit too tall.

Glad you survived the run/walk.  Hope the new shoes come in soon.

We've been fairly lucky with weather...cold but not to wet.

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:I toss my shoes as soon as that happens - so yes, probably worn out shoes.

By the way, if you use the code: TOPOALLEN20 you can get 20% off Topo shoes.

It's the most logical reason, though I did have a teensy slip-and-catch on the trails yesterday, but I'm not even sure it was that leg. Anyway, the shoes were causing minor problems anyway, so they're getting the heave-ho.

I will definitely check those shoes out. Turns out a store in Portland sells them, so I can see them firsthand, er, foot.

I'm kind of committed to getting those replacement Altras, but those seem intriguing as a Plan B.

ounce wrote:I find it so nice when some piece of the legs puts up a red flag when a pair has lived out their running usefulness and once that's fixed, the orchestra is back at the same point in the song.

Misty and cold is not very nice weather.

Thanks on the Altras and I'll take a look at Miche1e's link.  I need to find some trail shoes that have about a 4mm or less drop between front and back that's no taller than 18mm or so.  Hokas are a bit too tall.

A lot of the Altras have about a 22 mm stack height, that that's not all that much. And, of course, they have 0 mm drop between heel and forefoot. (The shoes Michele mentioned are like 3 mm drop in several varieties, the most being a 5 mm drop.)

Hoping the new shoes fix the problem. My knee is unusually cranky with me. Had to ice it.

nkrichards wrote:Glad you survived the run/walk.  Hope the new shoes come in soon.

We've been fairly lucky with weather...cold but not to wet.

Cold is okay, cold and wet? Not so much. Oh well. It's putting a lot of snow at higher elevations, so I will not complain. Nice to see some seriously burned-over areas under a thick healing blanket of snow this winter.

They said it'd be about a week for the shoes to arrive, which would be about Thursday. They'd better arrive then, because I'm losing my patience with them. Could have ordered them online from Altra and had them long ago, but I want to support local merchants when I can. (And when they don't annoy me too much.)

They only place near in Houston that has Topo's is a Whole Foods store.  Good job by the salesman.  "Honey?  When you go to Whole Foods, can you get a dozen eggs and a size 12 of the Topo's please?"

ounce wrote:They only place near in Houston that has Topo's is a Whole Foods store.  Good job by the salesman.  "Honey?  When you go to Whole Foods, can you get a dozen eggs and a size 12 of the Topo's please?"

Whole Foods? Wow. That's wild.

Mark B wrote:

ounce wrote:They only place near in Houston that has Topo's is a Whole Foods store.  Good job by the salesman.  "Honey?  When you go to Whole Foods, can you get a dozen eggs and a size 12 of the Topo's please?"

Whole Foods? Wow. That's wild.

That is an interesting business plan.....

nkrichards wrote:

Mark B wrote:

ounce wrote:They only place near in Houston that has Topo's is a Whole Foods store.  Good job by the salesman.  "Honey?  When you go to Whole Foods, can you get a dozen eggs and a size 12 of the Topo's please?"

Whole Foods? Wow. That's wild.

That is an interesting business plan.....

Oh, that Ounce. Such a joker.

It's not a Whole Foods Market, it's Whole Earth Provision Co., "Outfitting Texans since 1970 for Adventure, Travel & Fun!" (Why they thought random capitalization was a good idea is beyond me.)

The website says customers can take an extra 20% off sale underwear through Feb. 7, so he'd better get cracking.

Knee update: It was pretty angry at me Monday night, but it has been getting progressively better with rest. I did a walk to the mailbox this morning and while I could tell it wasn't right, it wasn't sparking on me. I've got a dynamic testing session at Nike on Friday, but it looks like that'll be a game-day decision.

Hey! I finally found something to motivate me to do strength work!

3x50, each, each side: clamshells, side-leg lifts, leg circles
50 bridges (both legs, slowly)
50 bicycle leg thrusts
17 sit-up/crunches

Might even do some push-ups later... (I've had better luck doing them at an incline on a counter. I prefer that to the knee pushups as I start to get my arm/chest/back muscles used to doing something again. I'm up to 30 at this point.)

Okay, I didn't actually do the push-ups, but I thought about it.

I'm still on my "time out" from running. My knee is much better now, and I'm happy to report that my replacement shoes finally came in. They feel pretty good, with no obvious defects. Whew!

I was going to do some dynamic testing at Nike today, but I decided to play it safe and begged off. It's frustrating, but I want this -- whatever it was -- to resolve and not get worse.

Mark B wrote:Okay, I didn't actually do the push-ups, but I thought about it.

I'm still on my "time out" from running. My knee is much better now, and I'm happy to report that my replacement shoes finally came in. They feel pretty good, with no obvious defects. Whew!

I was going to do some dynamic testing at Nike today, but I decided to play it safe and begged off. It's frustrating, but I want this -- whatever it was -- to resolve and not get worse.

Thinking about push-ups counts...I think.

I keep forgetting to ask how the caffeine withdrawal is going.

Glad to hear the knee is feeling better and the shoes are in.  Good for you for being cautious...not sure I would have been.

nkrichards wrote:

Mark B wrote:Okay, I didn't actually do the push-ups, but I thought about it.

I'm still on my "time out" from running. My knee is much better now, and I'm happy to report that my replacement shoes finally came in. They feel pretty good, with no obvious defects. Whew!

I was going to do some dynamic testing at Nike today, but I decided to play it safe and begged off. It's frustrating, but I want this -- whatever it was -- to resolve and not get worse.

Thinking about push-ups counts...I think.

I keep forgetting to ask how the caffeine withdrawal is going.

Glad to hear the knee is feeling better and the shoes are in.  Good for you for being cautious...not sure I would have been.

I think you're right on pushups, Nancy. Thanks for reminding me!

CoffeeBan 2016 is going better than I'd hoped. I had a bad headache the first day or two, but that faded. Brain fuzziness went away, as well, and my digestive system seems to have learned how to operate without a caffeine kick. I'm even sleeping better and waking up *awake* far more often (nearly every morning) than I had been before I quit.

My temper and appetite has evened out, which is good, and reality seems just slightly more ... real? It's hard to explain, but I kind of like it.

Don't come calling until you can do those push ups on the exercise ball with the ball not against the wall! 

Keep up the good work!

I get your coffee thing - I drink a cup maybe 3-4x per week, but I do drink a cup of tea a day.  But I do remember weaning myself off diet soda a few yrs back - very difficult, but I have not had one since, and I am so glad!  Whenever I feel the need for carbonation, I'll drink sparkling water (well that or champagne or beer!).

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Don't come calling until you can do those push ups on the exercise ball with the ball not against the wall! 

Keep up the good work!

I get your coffee thing - I drink a cup maybe 3-4x per week, but I do drink a cup of tea a day.  But I do remember weaning myself off diet soda a few yrs back - very difficult, but I have not had one since, and I am so glad!  Whenever I feel the need for carbonation, I'll drink sparkling water (well that or champagne or beer!).

Heh. I'll add that one to my list of "awesome things I'd love to be able to do" alongside whipping out more than 1/2 pull-up.

Mmm. Champagne. Always a good choice. Never understood why so many people see it as only something for celebrations. Maybe they just need to realize that every day is worth celebrating?

I gave up soda pop years ago and really don't miss it. Considering how much I used to suck down, that's amazing.

My biggest concern right know is this knee of mine. I'm not used to it being tweaked, and I can perceive it not being right -- sort of a slight pressure inside it -- and I'm getting a little anxious about it. I know time will tell, but sheesh. Does anybody know any self-tests that let you know if it's just a tweak or something more significant?

Mark B wrote:

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Don't come calling until you can do those push ups on the exercise ball with the ball not against the wall! 

Keep up the good work!

I get your coffee thing - I drink a cup maybe 3-4x per week, but I do drink a cup of tea a day.  But I do remember weaning myself off diet soda a few yrs back - very difficult, but I have not had one since, and I am so glad!  Whenever I feel the need for carbonation, I'll drink sparkling water (well that or champagne or beer!).

Heh. I'll add that one to my list of "awesome things I'd love to be able to do" alongside whipping out more than 1/2 pull-up.

Mmm. Champagne. Always a good choice. Never understood why so many people see it as only something for celebrations. Maybe they just need to realize that every day is worth celebrating?

I gave up soda pop years ago and really don't miss it. Considering how much I used to suck down, that's amazing.

My biggest concern right know is this knee of mine. I'm not used to it being tweaked, and I can perceive it not being right -- sort of a slight pressure inside it -- and I'm getting a little anxious about it. I know time will tell, but sheesh. Does anybody know any self-tests that let you know if it's just a tweak or something more significant?

Challenge accepted Michele...I managed a couple pushups on the ball but boy were they shaky. 

Not even going to attempt a pull-up Mark.

Hey, for what it's worth, I got up to 40 incline push-ups today. It feels silly doing it this way when I start, (I'm at about a 45° angle when I'm down fully), but it feels less silly the more push-ups I do. And I figure it'll make it easier when I go back to traditional on-the-floor push-ups. If nothing else, it helps me remember to breathe when I'm doing 'em.

Get to work on them - I can do 3 sets of 15 (but I'd be lying if I didn't own up to the fact that I have been working on getting to that level for 3 yrs!)

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Get to work on them - I can do 3 sets of 15 (but I'd be lying if I didn't own up to the fact that I have been working on getting to that level for 3 yrs!)

That's 3 sets of 15 with your feet on an exercise ball? That's impressive. It must work just about every muscle in your body.

Yes and three sets with my hands on the ball.  (I worked at it!)