Advice on switching Fall marathon plans

I’m torn about my fall marathon plans, and would love some advice. After training only moderately hard and running a very slow (as planned) Boston, I started the summer with enough left in my legs to attempt one more BQ this fall. My plan has been to run the Hartford Marathon on Oct. 13^th. Training has been going pretty well (the knee has held up just fine and there’s been no other little niggles). The problem has been the heat and humidity. It occurred to me that after eight marathons, this is the first early fall race that I’m training for, so it’s the first time I’m doing the hardest part of marathon training during the hottest part of the year. The hot weather has made it difficult to hit my paces during difficult workouts, and it's definitely taking me longer to recover from workouts than I'm used to. This weekend’s 20 miler was incredibly difficult. The plan was for 10 at MP. The combination of the past two weeks of lots of miles and a very hot day (81 degrees at the finish) made the plan impossible. I should also add that I spent 18 hours driving over the two days before the 20 miler.  I only managed about 3 at MP, and the rest was a slog. I have been able to get in some really good tempo runs, which has been encouraging, and I still have 5-6 weeks of training left before taper. My fear is that the heat will never let me hit my goal pace consistently enough to prepare me for a good marathon.
My other option is to push back my training by 4 weeks and register for Philly, which I’ve done twice and have BQ’d both times. This would give me the opportunity to get in some quality long runs in the cooler temps of early fall. I originally didn’t feel like going back to Philly a third time, but at this point, if I was convinced that I’d have a better shot at the BQ at Philly, I’d be fine with going back.
So, what do you think of me pushing back my training by about 4 weeks as opposed to continuing to train through the rest of the summer with the potential for never feeling like I’ve trained as fast as I need to? I can't wait much longer to make a decision because Philly will probably fill up in the next couple of weeks.

From this keyboard, it would depend on how close you are to the edge of the qualifying time and the typical weather in mid-October in Hartford.  I presume a 'seasonal' race day would be a high of 65-70 degrees, at which time you'll already be sipping a cold one.

I can guarantee you that you will NOT have any problem adjusting to cooler weather.  You'll probably need to warm up your legs a bit longer before the race and you'll need to throttle back a little bit during the race because every part of your body is going to want to go, go, go.  Your body won't have to spend so much effort to keep you cool, when it's cool.

I've trained for Fall marathons (one in late October and one two weeks later in 2006) in Texas which meant training all Summer in Houston.  I only ran in the dark early morning hours when it was 78 degrees with a dewpoint of 76 and no wind.  Just like it is right now.

Now, if you're on the edge of the qualifying time, then maybe Philly would be better.

I seemed to quantify that my Summer runs were 30 seconds slower per mile for every 5 degrees above 65 degrees.  I don't know if that holds true for lighter people.  Shouldn't the heat be lowering by Labor Day up there?

ounce wrote:From this keyboard, it would depend on how close you are to the edge of the qualifying time and the typical weather in mid-October in Hartford.  I presume a 'seasonal' race day would be a high of 65-70 degrees, at which time you'll already be sipping a cold one.

I can guarantee you that you will NOT have any problem adjusting to cooler weather.  You'll probably need to warm up your legs a bit longer before the race and you'll need to throttle back a little bit during the race because every part of your body is going to want to go, go, go.  Your body won't have to spend so much effort to keep you cool, when it's cool.

I've trained for Fall marathons (one in late October and one two weeks later in 2006) in Texas which meant training all Summer in Houston.  I only ran in the dark early morning hours when it was 78 degrees with a dewpoint of 76 and no wind.  Just like it is right now.

Now, if you're on the edge of the qualifying time, then maybe Philly would be better.

I seemed to quantify that my Summer runs were 30 seconds slower per mile for every 5 degrees above 65 degrees.  I don't know if that holds true for lighter people.  Shouldn't the heat be lowering by Labor Day up there?

The heat should ease up by mid-Sept. and from past experience, I know that running in the heat will yield dividends once the cooler temps arrive, but I think I am training right on the edge of my qualifying time, which is what's causing me to get nervous. If I was confident that the slower paces in the hot weather would definitely translate to faster paces on marathon day than I'd be pretty comfortable with staying with Hartford.

Many people don't actually try to hit MP on the hot days, but aim for MP HR. If the goal is to improve aerobic capacity that makes sense. For trying to pick a race that will be cooler that can be real hit or miss, or it sure has been for Chicago.

Jim Lentz wrote:Many people don't actually try to hit MP on the hot days, but aim for MP HR. If the goal is to improve aerobic capacity that makes sense. For trying to pick a race that will be cooler that can be real hit or miss, or it sure has been for Chicago.

That's another reason that I'm vascillating about Hartford. Early Oct. can go either way, while Philly is about as close to a sure thing for a cool day as you're going to find.

If it makes you feel any better, my marathon PR was done with mostly tempo runs and I think maybe 2 longer (10+) MP runs.  I think they're overrated.  If you can nail the tempos (which I mostly did on a treadmill for consistency's sake) you'll be fine.  Now, the weather on race day is just a chance you'll have to take and Philly unfortunately sells out too soon for you to wait on making the call.  I also think Philly is a pretty difficult course and you'd have an easier BQ elsewhere.

Seth - it has not been hot where I am (at least not since early July), but the humidity has just sucked.  I've adjusted as I used to in Atlanta with running at MP HR or effort rather than pace.  Remember the heat and humidity both will alter that target number and you need to adjust to the altered number.  McMillan even has a heat adjustment calculator for paces on his website.

And if it makes you feel any better, I've trained for many an early fall marathon in the heat and humidity of the summer - did all my long runs very slow (it is hilly here in western NY too) like 1:30 over MP, never did a "pace" run at MP because of the heat and humidity, and nailed the races.  I did find that if I stayed at the correct effort rather than the (over exerted effort) pace, I recovered fine and was ready for the next day. 

And remember you can't use age as an excuse as you only have me by a few months    - but it does play into things.  Effort not pace, and I believe you will be fine.  Wish I hadn't gotten into NY as Hartford was my back up plan.

Finally, we all know that a marathon is as much mental as it is physical, and, if and only if, it is better for your psyche to switch to Philly - then by all means do it.

I'll see you in Boston in 2016!

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Seth - it has not been hot where I am (at least not since early July), but the humidity has just sucked.  I've adjusted as I used to in Atlanta with running at MP HR or effort rather than pace.  Remember the heat and humidity both will alter that target number and you need to adjust to the altered number.  McMillan even has a heat adjustment calculator for paces on his website.

And if it makes you feel any better, I've trained for many an early fall marathon in the heat and humidity of the summer - did all my long runs very slow (it is hilly here in western NY too) like 1:30 over MP, never did a "pace" run at MP because of the heat and humidity, and nailed the races.  I did find that if I stayed at the correct effort rather than the (over exerted effort) pace, I recovered fine and was ready for the next day. 

And remember you can't use age as an excuse as you only have me by a few months    - but it does play into things.  Effort not pace, and I believe you will be fine.  Wish I hadn't gotten into NY as Hartford was my back up plan.

Finally, we all know that a marathon is as much mental as it is physical, and, if and only if, it is better for your psyche to switch to Philly - then by all means do it.

I'll see you in Boston in 2016!

Agree with Michele.  More about effort than pace.  I watch the dewpoint, above 65 and I know I need to make a pretty significant adjustment with a slower pace.  Use the McMillan guide.  If it cools down for the race you'll feel awesome.

As long as it's cool enough on race day, it shouldn't matter tremendously what paces you're hitting now, as long as you're running hard enough to make improvements.  Also, I don't even attempt the 20 w/ 10 @ MP until 3 weeks before race day.  Until then, it's the occasional (every 10 days) MP run and weekly tempo.

I have trained through the heat of summer for all of my marathons and know that when September/mid September hits, and the temps cool off, that my times will pick up. I, like Jim, don't like to run a lot of miles at MP. Therefore, I only run a pace that I know I can handle in the heat. My recommendation would be to keep at it and run Hartford, but if you are still lacking confidence, you could always sign up for Philly and run that if you would fail to qualify in October.

Thanks for all the great input everyone. Even though the majority of you seemed to think that the warm weather training would translate to a fast marathon time in the (hopefully) cooler temps, I made the decision to register for Philly. It may have been mostly psychological, (that and the fact that I've already BQ'd at Philly twice), but I just feel much more comfortable knowing that I'll get in the bulk of my long and hard training runs in slightly cooler weather, and then be very confident of not having a hot weather marathon. So that's it...I'll use the next four weeks to further work on form and speed, and then pick the training back up with about 5-6 weeks until marathon day. Again, thanks for all the great input.

Now that you have made the decision, I can still share some of my difficulties and solutions training for New York.

1. I cut my long run to 16. Every other week, I try back to back 16 though. 

2. Drink more. I bring Gaterade when I do hill repeats and drink Gaterade after warmup of my tempo. To make you feel better, my tempo is 7:00 pace for 3 miles. Haha

But I don't want to run Chicago any more 

Seth Harrison wrote:Thanks for all the great input everyone. Even though the majority of you seemed to think that the warm weather training would translate to a fast marathon time in the (hopefully) cooler temps, I made the decision to register for Philly. It may have been mostly psychological, (that and the fact that I've already BQ'd at Philly twice), but I just feel much more comfortable knowing that I'll get in the bulk of my long and hard training runs in slightly cooler weather, and then be very confident of not having a hot weather marathon. So that's it...I'll use the next four weeks to further work on form and speed, and then pick the training back up with about 5-6 weeks until marathon day. Again, thanks for all the great input.

with the extra time you now have, consider building strength and stamina and not worry so much about form and speed.  Having a stronger base will get you that much closer to your BQ objective.  I have always believed we have enough speed, just not enough strength and stamina to hold for 26.2   Even though the heat is tough, cranking out some tempos, 1-2 mile repeats and long runs, all at a slower paces but similar effort will pay big dividends.

mountandog wrote:

Seth Harrison wrote:Thanks for all the great input everyone. Even though the majority of you seemed to think that the warm weather training would translate to a fast marathon time in the (hopefully) cooler temps, I made the decision to register for Philly. It may have been mostly psychological, (that and the fact that I've already BQ'd at Philly twice), but I just feel much more comfortable knowing that I'll get in the bulk of my long and hard training runs in slightly cooler weather, and then be very confident of not having a hot weather marathon. So that's it...I'll use the next four weeks to further work on form and speed, and then pick the training back up with about 5-6 weeks until marathon day. Again, thanks for all the great input.

with the extra time you now have, consider building strength and stamina and not worry so much about form and speed.  Having a stronger base will get you that much closer to your BQ objective.  I have always believed we have enough speed, just not enough strength and stamina to hold for 26.2   Even though the heat is tough, cranking out some tempos, 1-2 mile repeats and long runs, all at a slower paces but similar effort will pay big dividends.

Yes, I think you're right. The speed isn't so much what I'm concerned with. I will, however, concentrate on form, especially when tired. That is something that I can be aware of towards the end of tempo runs, when there's not much left in the tank, and I do believe that tempo runs in the heat over the next few weeks will pay dividends once the cooler temps arrive in a month or so.

mountandog wrote:

Seth Harrison wrote:Thanks for all the great input everyone. Even though the majority of you seemed to think that the warm weather training would translate to a fast marathon time in the (hopefully) cooler temps, I made the decision to register for Philly. It may have been mostly psychological, (that and the fact that I've already BQ'd at Philly twice), but I just feel much more comfortable knowing that I'll get in the bulk of my long and hard training runs in slightly cooler weather, and then be very confident of not having a hot weather marathon. So that's it...I'll use the next four weeks to further work on form and speed, and then pick the training back up with about 5-6 weeks until marathon day. Again, thanks for all the great input.

with the extra time you now have, consider building strength and stamina and not worry so much about form and speed.  Having a stronger base will get you that much closer to your BQ objective.  I have always believed we have enough speed, just not enough strength and stamina to hold for 26.2   Even though the heat is tough, cranking out some tempos, 1-2 mile repeats and long runs, all at a slower paces but similar effort will pay big dividends.

I think this is a great idea...build up the stamina needed for the 26.2 mile beating that you will give your body.

FWIW, I think you made a good decision to change to Philly. I am extremely sceptical about the benefits of training in the summer heat for an early-fall marathon. I believe it needs hours of treadmill and that takes the fun out of the sport.

Nick Morris wrote:

mountandog wrote:

Seth Harrison wrote:Thanks for all the great input everyone. Even though the majority of you seemed to think that the warm weather training would translate to a fast marathon time in the (hopefully) cooler temps, I made the decision to register for Philly. It may have been mostly psychological, (that and the fact that I've already BQ'd at Philly twice), but I just feel much more comfortable knowing that I'll get in the bulk of my long and hard training runs in slightly cooler weather, and then be very confident of not having a hot weather marathon. So that's it...I'll use the next four weeks to further work on form and speed, and then pick the training back up with about 5-6 weeks until marathon day. Again, thanks for all the great input.

with the extra time you now have, consider building strength and stamina and not worry so much about form and speed.  Having a stronger base will get you that much closer to your BQ objective.  I have always believed we have enough speed, just not enough strength and stamina to hold for 26.2   Even though the heat is tough, cranking out some tempos, 1-2 mile repeats and long runs, all at a slower paces but similar effort will pay big dividends.

I think this is a great idea...build up the stamina needed for the 26.2 mile beating that you will give your body.

I don't have any speed.  Why, when I was being manufactured many years ago, I had just eaten.  And when an angel asked me if I wanted any speed, I thought he said 'feed' and I said "No, I have enough."   

Hope it works out well for you! Hartford is a well-organized race with a lot of BQs, and the weather on race day hasn't been much of an issue, despite its proximity on the calendar to Chicago, which has had the awful heat issues. For what it's worth, Hartford is also an easier course than Philly, and is not as crowded, so easy to run your pace throughout. I do agree that it'll be nice to train in the cooler weather and expect primo conditions on race day! Good luck!