Re: Brand new day

Michele "1L" Keane Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:26 pm

Nice to see you back, John. And although I know really nothing about the Hanson's plan, I would bet you need to slow down a bit on at least 1 if not 2 of those runs per week. Just think about it as it does work and don;t be stubborn like me and not make that change until you've been at it for 30 yrs Rolling Eyes

Chris M Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:42 pm

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Nice to see you back, John. And although I know really nothing about the Hanson's plan, I would bet you need to slow down a bit on at least 1 if not 2 of those runs per week. Just think about it as it does work and don;t be stubborn like me and not make that change until you've been at it for 30 yrs

I think Michele is dead on. Your idealized marathon goal is 3:05, right? McMillan says for that you should be doing:

recovery runs at 8:15-8:58 pace
long runs at 7:16-8:29 pace
easy runs at 7:11-8:10

This early in the cycle, I would think you would want to be at the low/slow end of all of these type of runs which means stuff closer to 8:30 or even slower on your recovery days. You are almost 15 seconds a mile faster than the fastest end of recovery pace every day. Yikes! You've clearly got a ton of running talent.....just need to keep you healthy for a full cycle and I think that's going a lot easier than you typically do in your training runs.

McMillan would say you need to be mashing it even harder at stuff like 400s (well under 6:00 pace) on the fast days
.......but go way slower on the easy days.

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/index.php/calcUsage/calculate

John Kilpatrick Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:27 pm

Good stuff Chris and Michele - I will take that to heart. According to Hanson, easy runs should be 8:01-8:49 - the slower runs feel so awkward to me - but I need to really take this serious this time - I really want to make it healthy another marathon. I've even scaled back my expectations in the hopes that will help as well - I'm now shooting for something around 3:10-3:15. Sooo, I'll try sticking more in the 8:30 pace or so for my easy runs.

Interesting about the speedwork Chris - I don't think I'm even capable of hitting 6:00 miles - I couldn't even make it through my first speedwork day. But, I'm not complaining and will keep plowing ahead - just trying to be smarter about things this time around.

On another note, I've been coughing (sometimes badly) for about a month now, been to the Doc a couple of times and have some funky bacterial infection that I'm supposed to start taking antibiotics for today (already been through one round of them which apparently didn't work). I think that would help running too...

On another note, here is my plan that I intend to follow through as best as I can...

[url=<a][/url] Brand new day - Page 2 Savann11

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mul21 Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:16 pm

That looks hilariously similar to my plan! The one change I did make was to add 20 milers back in because the whole concept of the 16 mile long run is that you're fatigued from the rest of the week's running and those 16 milers are like the last 16 of the marathon. Since you're not actually running all the days as prescribed by the plan, you might want to think about dropping a few 18-20 milers in there to help with your endurance a bit. You can look at the plan in my blog as a reference. Just a thought.

Also, if you're using the biking days as true recovery and not pushing those at all, I wouldn't worry about going as slow as Chris and Michele have suggested on the easy runs. You're getting recovery on the bike, so it's not as critical. However, if you're pushing at all on the bike, slow those runs down as they suggested. You have to pick one or the other to slow down on or you will break down again.

Chris M Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:17 pm

If your goal is 3:10-3:15, even slower than 8:30 is good and tons of miles done right at 8:00 is too fast. In terms of 400 repeat pacing, I always think of repeats in that range at being done at around 3K race pace. 800s I might do at 5k pace. Fast, definitely. Repeat workouts like that are meant to be screaming fast. And even at a 3:10 goal marathon time, 3K pace is under 6:00 pace so I would stay away from 400s until you feel like you can bust it down at that level. For myself, I'm avoiding the stuff really faster than goal MP (including tempos) until I feel fully ready to do true HM down to 1 mile race paces. As a general rule, I think most amateur runners like us tend to run their slow stuff too fast and their fast stuff too slow. The more experienced fast racers have huge deltas between their recovery/easy pace and mashing it pace each week. The rest of us schlubs tend to start to move both ends into a not particularly helpful GA pace. So, mostly its time to slow down now and then when you are ready for real speed work, speed up!

Dave-O Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:36 pm

I'm with Chris - slow down on your easy runs! I ran my 6 mile recovery run at 7:55 pace today. Easy on the easy days, hard on the hard days!

Good to have you back.

Julie Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:19 pm

good to have you back! I hope the antibiotics help and you can stay injury free for the long-term!

Mike MacLellan Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:32 am

I'll be the contrary opinion. Well, sort of.

Agree with what's being said; however, this is a HUGE step for you. I know how hard it was for you to even consider slowing down and to ease off a bit (weren't you trying to come back with 12 milers at like 7:30 or something?), so just keep it up. I'm sure it feels weird and uncomfortable to run slowly, but trust the system. There's a reason these plans have passed the test of time.

John Kilpatrick Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:37 am

mul21 wrote:Since you're not actually running all the days as prescribed by the plan, you might want to think about dropping a few 18-20 milers in there to help with your endurance a bit.

I see everyone has pretty much the same feeling about capping runs at 16 miles - I'm honestly scared to death of getting hurt and long runs scare me. If I get hurt this time I think I'll maybe just drop back to doing a lot of very slow miles and see where that gets me. In the meantime, I'm going to try and stick with the plan the best I can.

Chris M wrote:So, mostly its time to slow down now and then when you are ready for real speed work, speed up!

Thanks Chris - it was awesome to talk with you a little - really fired me up again and I appreciate the encouragement. I'm going to take some of those recovery days more slow - I know that if I don't train hard enough I won't meet my goals, but I've also learned the hard way that if I never make it to the starting line than none of it matters anyway. Fine line it seems...

Dave-O wrote:Easy on the easy days, hard on the hard days!

Good to have you back.

Thanks Dave - appreciate it!

Julie wrote:good to have you back! I hope the antibiotics help and you can stay injury free for the long-term!

Thanks Julie - second round has me feeling MUCH better - able to sleep now and cough almost gone - yay!

Mike MacLellan wrote:I'll be the contrary opinion. Well, sort of.

Agree with what's being said; however, this is a HUGE step for you. I know how hard it was for you to even consider slowing down and to ease off a bit (weren't you trying to come back with 12 milers at like 7:30 or something?), so just keep it up. I'm sure it feels weird and uncomfortable to run slowly, but trust the system. There's a reason these plans have passed the test of time.

Mike, a contrarian? Say it isn't so!!! Thanks buddy - I appreciate the kind words. I'm trying to take things more seriously this time. It might be great for some people, but this run by feel thing has never really worked for me. What feels great to me has ended with some not so great results.

Week 3 of Savannah training:
Mon: 6 @ 8:05
Tue: 9 speedwork

2 mile warmup (8:32 pace)
8 x 600 meter intervals at 6:18 (except I was totally gassed for the last interval and cheated, only running 400 m)
rests between intervals at 9:17 pace
2 mile cooldown at 8:32 pace

Wed: rest
Thur: 6@ 8:05
Fri: 6 @ 8:30
Sat: 6 @ 8:28
Sun: 8 @ 7:41 (ran with a few friends)

Having some significant calf pain every since Tuesday's run. Shock to the system I guess, but I've been running through it. Feels good running until about mile 5 and then begins hurting again. Walking hurts - a lot at times. Feels a little better today though. This, as opposed to a real injury, just appears to be sore muscles which I know will get better. That doesn't bother me so much, but I won't lie - I'm really nervous about actual injuries based on my history.

I won't run today but will go for a bike ride. I'm debating on whether to attempt tomorrow's speed work or just go for a slower run. I'm taking my son to the beach Wed-Friday and am going to miss at least a day's run. Will probably run Wed. morning, skip Thursday and do my first tempo run (MP according to Hansons) on Friday night when I get home. That one sort of scares me, as I don't know if I can hold a 7:03-7:15 pace for 6 miles.

Michele "1L" Keane Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:14 pm

Careful with that calf - I know about calf issues - just make sure to stretch and monitor it carefully. Also make sure to stretch the foot and arch as well as calf issues can lead to PF and achilles issues - I am the poster child for that.

As for the longer runs, whoever suggested an 18 and a 20 is probably spot on as you have only run one marathon (if I remember correctly). I know that I can get away with shorter runs (if it isn't a goal race) but I've been crazy enough to have been doing this for years. And as for the paces, well, let's just say that I've been running some pretty slow easy and recovery paced runs as of late with very little speed, and I was still able to run a pretty fast half marathon for me on very low mileage. I am attributing much of it to slowing down when I should be slowing down.

Chris M Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:26 pm

John Kilpatrick wrote:
mul21 wrote:Since you're not actually running all the days as prescribed by the plan, you might want to think about dropping a few 18-20 milers in there to help with your endurance a bit.
I see everyone has pretty much the same feeling about capping runs at 16 miles - I'm honestly scared to death of getting hurt and long runs scare me. If I get hurt this time I think I'll maybe just drop back to doing a lot of very slow miles and see where that gets me. In the meantime, I'm going to try and stick with the plan the best I can.

Chris M wrote:So, mostly its time to slow down now and then when you are ready for real speed work, speed up!
Thanks Chris - it was awesome to talk with you a little - really fired me up again and I appreciate the encouragement. I'm going to take some of those recovery days more slow - I know that if I don't train hard enough I won't meet my goals, but I've also learned the hard way that if I never make it to the starting line than none of it matters anyway. Fine line it seems...

It was good to talk on the phone to you as well. I'm going to harp on your comment above that " I know that if I don't train hard enough I won't meet my goals" and take issue with it. I think you are thinking about it the wrong way. Its not training HARD, its training smart and for a long time. Given the speed you've already demonstrated at the 5K, I think there is one and ONLY ONE determiner for how you will fare in the marathon.....how many miles did you get in during the run-up to the marathon? I know the Hanson's plan is not a super mileage heavy plan but if you can complete that, you'll be fine. But the key is not some speed workout or a particularly good single GA or long run. Did you log the miles necessary? If you can only pull together 30-40 mpw during this cycle, the marathon will suck and you will not have a great deal of fun out there. On the far other end of the spectrum, if you ever did 12 weeks of 60+ mpw, I can virtually guarantee you that you would BQ even if every single one of those miles was done at 8:00 and slower pace. Go slow enough to just keep logging the miles and not get hurt. If 8:00 starts to hurt a bit, slow to 9:00 pace but keep doing it. An extreme view, I know, but I'm convinced that for a runner like you its mileage and not pace/speed that will be the sole factor in how race day turns out.

John Kilpatrick Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:47 am

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Careful with that calf - I know about calf issues - just make sure to stretch and monitor it carefully. Also make sure to stretch the foot and arch as well as calf issues can lead to PF and achilles issues - I am the poster child for that.

As for the longer runs, whoever suggested an 18 and a 20 is probably spot on as you have only run one marathon (if I remember correctly). I know that I can get away with shorter runs (if it isn't a goal race) but I've been crazy enough to have been doing this for years. And as for the paces, well, let's just say that I've been running some pretty slow easy and recovery paced runs as of late with very little speed, and I was still able to run a pretty fast half marathon for me on very low mileage. I am attributing much of it to slowing down when I should be slowing down.

For the first time, I broke down and bought a foam roller and a massage stick. I've never had calf issues before, but I'm trying to take this stuff a little more serious this time and it seems there are a lot of believers in massaging... I wanted a starting point for a plan to use as a template, but I might end up tweaking the thing as I go along.

And yep - I've only done one marathon, and for the running that I've tried to do, it seems like a long time ago. I was still on Hal's board then I believe.

Chris M wrote:

An extreme view, I know, but I'm convinced that for a runner like you its mileage and not pace/speed that will be the sole factor in how race day turns out.

Not an extreme view - just one that I really haven't considered. The speedwork scares me a little - I haven't decided yet on whether to do my speedwork today (calves better but still sore) or just go for a mid-range run. It's only been a couple of weeks, but I think I'm going to go back to running either 5 or 6 days a week instead of only 4. Four days just seems like too few to me...

Chris M Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:17 am

Don't think of the speedwork as truly having to be killer and if it has to be dialed back, you'll be fine.

I think of an average marathon week as:

Monday-recovery
Tuesday-HARD
Wednesday-recovery
Thursday-easy
Friday-HARD
Saturday-easy
Sunday-long

you can mix up the days a bit and any rest or x-training days take the place of recovery days. If you were shooting for a 3:10, the paces for these 3 might look like this:

Recovery = 8:30-9:00
Easy = 7:20 - 8:20
Long = 7:25-8:45
HARD = tempos at 6:30-6:50
1 mile repeats at 6:15-6:30
800s at 5:50-6:10
400s at 5:40-6:00

Schuey Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:13 pm

I have to catch up on your blog and right now I'm out with my family. Thought that I would just let you know I don't do any speedwork, stop doing it a long time ago. My take us I have never found it useful to my marathon or ultra training. I would rather run long more often at an easy pace. For me I have learned that its all about aerobic aerobic aerobic. Don't get me wrong I do fartleks, steady state, progression runs but never go to the track and never run at 5k pace.

I just fine better use of my time and energy run medium to long runs. I like building my engine up to handle the pace late in the race and feel strong. I have just found that us what works for me.

John Kilpatrick Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:29 am

Thanks Chris and Schuey

For last week:

Mon: cycled 35 miles at 19.8 mph. Calf was still really hurting from last week

Tue: Decided to ditch the speedwork - for me, it might just be too risky for injury - so I'm changing from my original plan and won't be doing any for the foreseeable future. I decided to do a MP tempo instead on the mill in an air-conditioned gym. 2 up @ 8:25, 6 @ 7:05, 2 down at 8:32

Wed: rest - calf still hurting pretty badly - took my son to the beach

Thursday: Still at the beach with my son. I would of felt guilty about missing a run a year or two ago, but now I just enjoyed the time with Blake instead. Calf was still hurting so it was probably beneficial to have the rest anyway and not booger it up worse with another scheduled MP run.

Friday: 6 @ 8:12

Saturday: Chris McKee special - 10 @ 8:32 (7mph at 1% incline on the mill)

Sunday: 10 @ 7:41

Week: ran 36 miles, but ended up using the roller, taking care of my budding calf issue and now I feel much better. So, it was a low-mileage week, but probably an overall win anyway.

So far this week, 6 mile recovery run on Monday @ 8:28. Ran at noon - only 86, but 67% RH - sweating buckets by the end of it.

Tuesday - another tempo on my mill in the garage after a day at the lake swimming with Blake and one of his friends - got home tired and unmotivated. 85 degrees, 77% RH. 2 up@ 8:32, 6 @ 7:05, 2 down at 8:32. Had to stop and take a breather and a drink of gatorade after 4 miles of tempo. Sufferfest. I don't know what it counts for - it felt like ice skating because the treadmill belt was so wet and my feet would slip every step. That was a first... Good (great) news is that the calf feels almost as good as new. Legs feel comfortably tired, not sore. Heat is definitely taking a toll on running performance, but I'm just doing what I can do...

John Kilpatrick Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:21 am

Wed: off

Thursday - planned to run a 10-11 miler with a 6 mile tempo. Wasn't happening. First couple of miles were easy, but it didn't take long running at my planned 7:05-7:10 pace to realize that it just wasn't going to happen tonight. The temp was 87, but the RH was 72% and I had to fight the whole run. I plugged that into a heat index calculator and it "felt like" 99 - it wasn't a 5 or 10K pace and I thought I should of been able to hole it together for longer, but I was only able to hole a 7:28 for the tempo portion - I was dying by the end of it. The whole run averaged together was 7:45 which I feel ok about, but it was discouraging. Summertime always has me a little freaked out because paces drop and effort seems to increase and I have to remember that. I don't know if it is the heat or what, but these tempo runs are kicking my ass. The last one I did in an air-conditioned gym wasn't too bad so who knows.

I'm sort of changing tune mentally on this whole training cycle anyway. I've been thinking about my main concern is consistency and mileage. But it will have to come at a sacrifice of speed in my training I'm thinking - that may make me lose my goal for Savannah, but I also have the option of continuing to build and racing Albany. I don't know, but it might be that hitting 3:15 for Savannah might be unrealistic based on recent runs. BUT, I've never really tried the more slow mileage thing and it might be my ticket. Anyway, just what I've been thinking recently - maybe 2 MP runs a week and one long run every-other week. No cycling, but force myself to run the slow runs at 8:30 or better. No runs faster than MP in the whole training cycle. Target of peaking in the 60-70 mpw range. It is a new approach that might work for me. Time will tell...

Nick Morris Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:45 am

John, I think that the speed will come when the temperatures cool off. You just need to focus on consistency and effort and not worry about time as much. I have been in your same boat. Especially last year when it was so flippin' hot for so long. But when the end of September and October came along, the speed came back like you wouldn't believe. I ended up PRing in the Half and in the Full. And PRing by a lot...I guess what I am trying to say is be patient and trust your training.

Schuey Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:16 pm

Yep slow down and don't worry about your pace! Fitness will come back but you can't rush it. Plus if you push things your body is going to break down because it is continuing to use to all the volume and recovering from all the efforts you are putting in. Pretty simple if you don't allow your body time to recover between runs I can tell 100% you will be on the shelf again. Your calf hurting is your bodies way of saying "slow down!!!" Plus you want the body to be able benefit from the training you are doing.

Look I know better than anyone cause I have been there and I have made these mistakes in the past. When coming back from an injury you really have to take your time with the comeback. Building your fitness and allowing you body to get use to the stress of running and recovering. Trust me if you do it right and take your time you will be back to were you want before you know it. If you continue to push the issue trust me it will take you longer to get back to were you want to be. Don't learn the lesson the hard way like I did! Slow down enjoy the process and don't worry about your distance or pace FORGET about it for now!!!

Just me thoughts speaking out loud.

John Kilpatrick Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:45 pm

OK, I'm feeling pretty good tonight - just wanted to share.

First off, I'm really embracing the run easier thing. I'm settled into now running two MP runs a week and if it is hot out and I have a bad day, I'm not going to beat myself up about it, just put in a MP effort and leave the results where they lay. Sometimes the heat just gets me and I simply can't do a run. No crime in that.

Second - I'm sticking with Hanson's suggestion of a long-run pace run every other Sunday. So, every other week I'll have two "working" runs and the other week I'll have three. I don't feel that is too taxing, as the long run paces are not too crazy.

Third, I hit about 57 miles this week - first week in a while that I felt was a "real" week of training. AND, I did it without any true speedwork. AND, my legs feel fresh and I don't feel beat down at all. AND my calf is completely good - no pain at all.

The more I think about it the more at peace I am with the decision to train for Savannah like it is important (it is), but not to sell out for it and put myself at a higher risk of injury. If I can't nail a BQ there, then just back at it for the Albany marathon in early March.

This run easy thing almost feels dishonest (some runs just feel so easy), but I'm trusting the process and those that have been through this. Anyway, feeling really good about the state I'm in and maybe I can finally reach a starting line. If not in the best of shape, at least able to race. If this thing takes a couple more years, then so be it.

For this week:
Mon: 6 at 8:28 on TM
Tue: 10 with 6 at 7:05 on treadmill
Wed: rest
Thursday: 12 with 6 at 7:28. Outdoor run Couldn't hit MP. Not even close. Heat got to me. No worries, forget about it and keep plugging. Strong effort though...
Friday: 7.1 at 8:28 lunchtime outdoor run.
Saturday: 8.75 at 8:19 morning run with a friend - don't get to run with someone very often, so I don't take it for granted when I do!
Sun: 12.5 at 8:20.

Week: 56.35 miles. I toyed with the idea of running an easy 3.7 miles this evening to round that number out, but I've got time. I sort of feel like a runner again at the end of this week. Love it!!!

mul21 Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:43 pm

Sounds like you've got a decent plan to work with. One thing to be careful with is how many tempo/MP miles you're putting in per week. 3 runs at that intensity in a given week might be asking a bit much of your body, not so much from an injury standpoint, but from an over training aspect.

Just something to keep an eye on. You might consider just making those long pace runs a fast finish type and assess if you're feeling up to it when the time comes to pick up the pace.

Mark B Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:51 pm

Hey, John, I'd never be confused for a speedy runner... but I have to echo what you've been hearing.

Probably the biggest determining factor for success in your marathon isn't speedwork, or tempo, or even aerobic work. It's making sure you stay healthy and uninjured so you can train consistently. All the fast runs in the world won't do a lick of good if they put you in the doctor's waiting room. Patience! Improvement will come, and your body won't let you rush it.

Schuey Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:15 pm

Glad to read your going to embrace the process! Trust me it will all comeback and before you know it you will past were you were pre-injury. Sometimes the hardest thing for a veteran or new runner is to put "
Trust" into the plan.

I would also echo that doing 2 MP runs might be to much. I think doing one long run and then a Fartlek MP run can work. By doing the Fartlek at sorter intervals (like 1/2 mile, 3/4 mile or mile) or evening doing the reps for time will give you the benefit of doing MP but at the same time will not over tax your body.

Mark hit it on the head it is always better to reach the starting line 100% healthy and a little under trained vs having a niggle or being over trained. Great example is Biston die me thus past year. Instead if pushing the training I went in so under trained that I told Lisa I'm not sure I was in shape to finish 26.2 miles. End result I was healthy and finished. Not in a PR time but in 3:09, so as you can see the day ended in success.

Still today I'm not pushing the training. Sure my mind tells me I can run 110 plus miles a week but I don't. Reason being I know I have to continue to allow my body to adapt to the stress of running. I trust the process and know it will happen. And the race times I want to run will happen in all due time.

Good luck with it all buddy!

JohnP Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:41 pm

I agree two MP runs a week is too much especially with the weather you are mentioning. An MP run becomes a tempo run in those conditions.

T Miller Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:28 am

Hey John, I agree with the others that 2 MP runs in a week may be too much. When I do MP runs in the summer I usually get out early before it gets light so that I can get the coolest weather possible. Another run that I like to do that you may be able to substitute in for one of the MP runs is a Hal style tempo. If you're not familiar with it, it is a run that starts slow and works toward a peak in the middle and ends slow. It is a bell shaped curve if you were to look at it on a graph. I like this run because it's easy to control how difficult the run is by basing it on how you feel. You can also use the peak in the middle to track the progress of your up tempo running without overtaxing the system. I usually make the peak between .5 and 2 miles around 5k pace.

John Kilpatrick Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:28 pm

Thanks for the suggestions - I think maybe I'll try a blend of doing one long and one MP run one week and 2 MP and one long the other week - I'm sort of tweaking this as I go along, so I really appreciate the suggestions.

For the week 8/5-8/11

Mon: 8.3 @ 8.23 pace
Tue: 3 up @ 8:04, 4 @ 7:07, one rest @ 8:02, 2 @ 7:17, 2 down at 8:17. It was again too hot to nail a good MP run (at least I'm blaming it on the heat), so this was my way of doing what I could. I was pretty zonked after this one.
Wed: Rest
Thurs: treadmill in the garage, but it was only around 80, which feels sort of chilly about now! 3 up @ 8:32, 6 @ 7:10, 3 down @ 8:32
Friday: Outdoor run - wanted to do 8, stopped at 6.2. Heat index was 112 and I guess I just wasn't in the mood... 6.2 @ 8:20
Saturday: Night time treadmill run - Chris McKee special. 10 miles at 8:32 (1% incline, 7.0 mph)
Sunday: Early morning treadmill run: 15 @ 7:47. That was a lot of time staring at the garage door.....

For the week: 63.5 miles. 12 miles at MP, 15 miles long run pace (MP + ~35 sec), 36.5 miles slow and easy.

I feel great but think I might take a bit of a stepback week this week.

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