Repeats vs. Intervals - What's The Difference?

Chris M wrote:Every speed should be hit. If you never run with anything but short recoveries, you simply cannot do 400s or mile repeats at the same speed. Unless you are sandbagging it and not trying, you will be significantly faster on mile repeats with 4+ minute recoveries versus 1 minute. Ditto for slightly longer 400 recoveries. And I think there is significant value in running 400s and mile repeats at those faster paces. I LOVE going back to MP after ripping off a series mile-race-paced 400s. It feels like jogging! I am a big believer in knowing the purpose of each workout and when I am doing a max speed type workout, I'm looking to learn and hone running at the fastest pace possible and really work on mechanics and form. Tempos and other speed workouts work on quicker on/off transitions, sustained VO2max levels and other adaptations.

There's a reason "Yasso 800s" are probably the single most famous track workout for marathoners. The simplicity of it and the long recoveries with a ton (almost 5 miles) of 5k-paced running makes it, in my mind, a much better workout than some of the super short recovery ones done at lower speeds.

I hope I've included the right excerpts regarding the speeds to hit for marathon training. Basically, the marathon training plans that I could put my fingers on - except one - don't use anything much faster than 5K pace. So, yes, you have to hit the speeds. But those speeds just don't seem to have to be so fast that you need a full recovery. Just the opposite, the speeds seem to need to be slow enough so that you can do the next, and the next, and the next, without your HR coming back down past, say, 120 (just to pick a ball park number).

Daniels does talk about longer recoveries being fine for longer repeats - he talks about doing 5 minute threshold repeats, where it takes 2 minutes to get to LT and then you spend 3 minutes at LT. Then longer recoveries are fine.

With your strong stated desire to incorporate 400s @ mile pace with full recoveries, I would encourage you to pick up Daniels' Second Edition and look at how he incorproates them into his "Elite" training plan. That's the one published reference I could find incorporating really fast, short repeats. Not saying there aren't others, only that I don't have them.

Most of the plans and coaches I've seen talk about the final sharpening phase of marathon training do have some sub 5K speed workouts in those final weeks. Sometimes it is 6 x 1,000 at 3K pace, sometimes it is 3x1 mile pretty much all out, and lots of people do 16 x 400 at 5k pace. Pfitz has final tune up workouts at those speeds in the 18/70 advanced plan and Galloway's advanced plans have 3K paced workouts once a week during the final phase. I am a firm believer that 5K and faster paced running is necessary at the end of a marathon cycle to restore some pop to the legs. I typically don't run any 400s anymore as part of marathon training but always do them during taper. I remember reading something about a "VO2 max spike" final workout done right before the marathon where you truly go to all out max pace and then carb up right after. Supposed to have an immediate impact if done correctly but I've never tried it. But in general I do think that in those final weeks before the marathon, I want to be hitting 5K pace or faster in some workouts. And I'm not going to do that doing mile repeats with only 1:00 recovery. That's going to be more like 10K/tempo pace. A GREAT workout but not ideal for restoring pop to the legs and doing the Renato Canova concept of honing the biomechanics. I want my repeats to be about maximal speed, not adding to an endurance engine I should already have built.

And as for what Sebastin Coe called the "work to relief ratio" this thread has been covering both sides of that debate with many like me out there believing a 1:1 ratio is closer to optimal for true speed (and not tempo-like) sessions and others choosing to do workouts with much shorter rest intervals like 1.0 work to 0.5 or less relief. I think the answer is that both can be right. Diego shouldn't be messing with shortening the recoveries on the Yasso 800. If he can run 10x800 at 2:55 with only 60-90 seconds rest, then suck it up and go sub 2:50 for the 800s with 2:45 rest. And I in turn need to do more workouts like the one MVW and I did in Boston....mile repeats with only 1:00 rest interval. I won't likely move away from doing more of my mile repeat workouts with longer recoveries but it always works to mix it up and try different workout formats.

Chris M wrote:Most of the plans and coaches I've seen talk about the final sharpening phase of marathon training do have some sub 5K speed workouts in those final weeks. Sometimes it is 6 x 1,000 at 3K pace, sometimes it is 3x1 mile pretty much all out, and lots of people do 16 x 400 at 5k pace. Pfitz has final tune up workouts at those speeds in the 18/70 advanced plan and Galloway's advanced plans have 3K paced workouts once a week during the final phase. I am a firm believer that 5K and faster paced running is necessary at the end of a marathon cycle to restore some pop to the legs. I typically don't run any 400s anymore as part of marathon training but always do them during taper. I remember reading something about a "VO2 max spike" final workout done right before the marathon where you truly go to all out max pace and then carb up right after. Supposed to have an immediate impact if done correctly but I've never tried it. But in general I do think that in those final weeks before the marathon, I want to be hitting 5K pace or faster in some workouts. And I'm not going to do that doing mile repeats with only 1:00 recovery. That's going to be more like 10K/tempo pace. A GREAT workout but not ideal for restoring pop to the legs and doing the Renato Canova concept of honing the biomechanics. I want my repeats to be about maximal speed, not adding to an endurance engine I should already have built.

And as for what Sebastin Coe called the "work to relief ratio" this thread has been covering both sides of that debate with many like me out there believing a 1:1 ratio is closer to optimal for true speed (and not tempo-like) sessions and others choosing to do workouts with much shorter rest intervals like 1.0 work to 0.5 or less relief. I think the answer is that both can be right. Diego shouldn't be messing with shortening the recoveries on the Yasso 800. If he can run 10x800 at 2:55 with only 60-90 seconds rest, then suck it up and go sub 2:50 for the 800s with 2:45 rest. And I in turn need to do more workouts like the one MVW and I did in Boston....mile repeats with only 1:00 rest interval. I won't likely move away from doing more of my mile repeat workouts with longer recoveries but it always works to mix it up and try different workout formats.

Each to their own. I have no speed. My best 200 meters is 34-35 seconds(pathetic), but my strengths are endurance and fast recovery. I should probably be in the gym doing plyos and squats to improve that 200 and 400 pace. Or maybe I should do the ischemic compression exercises Dara Torres performs to release HGH and get fast like her.

Diego wrote:

Chris M wrote:Most of the plans and coaches I've seen talk about the final sharpening phase of marathon training do have some sub 5K speed workouts in those final weeks. Sometimes it is 6 x 1,000 at 3K pace, sometimes it is 3x1 mile pretty much all out, and lots of people do 16 x 400 at 5k pace. Pfitz has final tune up workouts at those speeds in the 18/70 advanced plan and Galloway's advanced plans have 3K paced workouts once a week during the final phase. I am a firm believer that 5K and faster paced running is necessary at the end of a marathon cycle to restore some pop to the legs. I typically don't run any 400s anymore as part of marathon training but always do them during taper. I remember reading something about a "VO2 max spike" final workout done right before the marathon where you truly go to all out max pace and then carb up right after. Supposed to have an immediate impact if done correctly but I've never tried it. But in general I do think that in those final weeks before the marathon, I want to be hitting 5K pace or faster in some workouts. And I'm not going to do that doing mile repeats with only 1:00 recovery. That's going to be more like 10K/tempo pace. A GREAT workout but not ideal for restoring pop to the legs and doing the Renato Canova concept of honing the biomechanics. I want my repeats to be about maximal speed, not adding to an endurance engine I should already have built.

And as for what Sebastin Coe called the "work to relief ratio" this thread has been covering both sides of that debate with many like me out there believing a 1:1 ratio is closer to optimal for true speed (and not tempo-like) sessions and others choosing to do workouts with much shorter rest intervals like 1.0 work to 0.5 or less relief. I think the answer is that both can be right. Diego shouldn't be messing with shortening the recoveries on the Yasso 800. If he can run 10x800 at 2:55 with only 60-90 seconds rest, then suck it up and go sub 2:50 for the 800s with 2:45 rest. And I in turn need to do more workouts like the one MVW and I did in Boston....mile repeats with only 1:00 rest interval. I won't likely move away from doing more of my mile repeat workouts with longer recoveries but it always works to mix it up and try different workout formats.

Each to their own. I have no speed. My best 200 meters is 34-35 seconds(pathetic), but my strengths are endurance and fast recovery. I should probably be in the gym doing plyos and squats to improve that 200 and 400 pace. Or maybe I should do the ischemic compression exercises Dara Torres performs to release HGH and get fast like her.

I don't buy that as your best 200 time you could do. Surely you could do something closer to 30 seconds with your speed. And if not....that's EXACTLY why you should be doing speed work MY preferred way (faster speeds, longer recovery) instead of the MVW preferred way (slower speeds, short recovery). There's no way a sub3 guy shouldnt be able to get very close to 30 seconds on a single all out 200 and recruiting some biomechanics though a couple of speed sessions done in the low end of the 5:XX pace range will help!

There's a trap for all of us in training that we tend to do the workouts and format that we like to do or that we've had success with. I think its very beneficial to get out there and shake it up with a workout you've never tried. Diego, go blast away at 3x1 mile HARD soon. None of them better be 6:00 or higher. Complete and full recovery between each to make sure that's the case. And me? Yeah, I should be trying more of this short recovery stuff more often.

Chris M wrote: And if not....that's EXACTLY why you should be doing speed work MY preferred way (faster speeds, longer recovery) instead of the MVW preferred way (slower speeds, short recovery).

Chris, I want to just take a second to make sure it's clear that whatever I've brought to this thread is from Daniels, McMillan, Pfitzinger and Hudson. It has nothing to do with what I personally prefer. Like you, I just do what my coach tells me.

The intent was really to try to help those that are not as convinced as you are whether there is any consensus. I really wasn't sure what I was going to find. I encourage others to bring what they have read, whether similar or different.

Martin VW wrote:

Chris M wrote: And if not....that's EXACTLY why you should be doing speed work MY preferred way (faster speeds, longer recovery) instead of the MVW preferred way (slower speeds, short recovery).

Chris, I want to just take a second to make sure it's clear that whatever I've brought to this thread is from Daniels, McMillan, Pfitzinger and Hudson. It has nothing to do with what I personally prefer. Like you, I just do what my coach tells me.

The intent was really to try to help those that are not as convinced as you are whether there is any consensus. I really wasn't sure what I was going to find. I encourage others to bring what they have read, whether similar or different.

Yeah yeah yeah....I hear you. Its just more fun to make it MVW vs Chris rather than Galloway/Coe vs. McMillian/Hudson.