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Huge Races

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Post  Sara Jane Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:06 pm

Last spring (when we were all still over at Hal's place) I posted that I was again slightly irritated after running the Cherry Blossom 10-miler. It was super crowded I felt like I could never get on pace. I said something like: "I was dodging people the entire time." Hal responded and said something like: "well you shouldn't have done that, you were just wasting energy, you should have just been patient." I don't think Hal's ever been in the mid to back of pack in a race like that. I couldn't just wait. It was like that the entire way and never cleared up! The race is absolutely beautiful, but after experiencing that twice, I decided it wasn't worth the frustration.

I had the same experience this past Sunday in the Army 10-miler (also my second time doing the race). Again, awesome race. And VERY well organized. But WAY too crowded. Thankfully this time I wasn't racing at all...was literally just jogging with a friend. But it was just packed too tight. During the race, I said to my friend that after NYC next month, I think I am done with huge races. It's just so frustrating.

After Army, I was texting with Wendy (who is coaching me)...she had just experienced her first HUGE race (Chicago) and did not like that aspect of it (see her race report). We've both discussed similar reasons why.

Is there a solution? Was Hal right that I was just approaching it incorrectly and that I needed to do something differently? If so, what is it? I had lunch with Vivian on Monday and we talked about Huge vs. smaller races - they are just "different." Not necessarily bad or good. I agree with that. We also concluded that I don't think Viv has ever experienced what I have, because she quite often starts much closer the front of the pack.

Anyway, not necessarily a question here. I just read a post by Bob talking about how he was inspired watching Chicago and what a great race it is in such a great city. And, despite all that I wrote above, I have similar feelings about NYC. For me, NYC is hands down without a doubt the greatest city on the planet (at least out of those I've visited, of course!)...and running through it is like nothing else. But there is still one level on which I am dreading the HUGE aspect of the race. The mass of people is, on one hand, what makes is inspiring. Half of the people are speaking a different language, wearing a costume, supporting causes, and I teared up more than once last time I ran it. But I am really, really trying to race the marathon this time...RACE it...for a good time. I've been training really hard to do so. (I've deferred, and paid, twice so deferring again and choosing a different race for this PR attempt wasn't really a financial option.) And I am dreading that it might not be possible. That I will ignore Hal's advice and try to dodge people and "waste energy" in a way that is not wise.

So what's a girl to do? I am not going to just NOT race it. It's just not in me. I want to race this marathon. For me, I think the solution is choosing smaller races from here on out. But I wonder if I will be giving something up in the inspiration/awe department.

Not really a question here. Just musing.
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Post  MartinD Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:24 pm

I had a similar experience when I ran London last year - there were just too many people at the start. Even though I was fairly well forward in the field (in the 3rd of 9 corrals), it still took me 2 minutes to cross the start line, and everyone around me came to a virtual stop about half a mile into the race when the road narrowed. Things did get better after this, but it took me until about 8 miles into the race before I felt able to run at my own pace.

While I did a bit of moving around to find a way through the crowd, I generally kept to the pace of the people around me. While this was a bit frustrating at the time, I think that it really helped me later on in the race - the enforced slow pace meant that my legs were still fresh and I had plenty of energy going into the second half of the race, and felt strong all the way through to the finish. There are probably things that you can do to avoid the worst parts of being part of such a big race, but some of the problems will be unavoidable - in this situation, it seems sensible to me to plan for the bad stuff to happen, and do the best you can with the situation that you find yourself in.

Don't know if this is of any help, but thought it was worth putting out there as an alternative opinion...
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Post  Jack_Scaff Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:33 pm

I vote for smaller races. I thought MCM was great but crowded. Honolulu same thing. CHI was not so bad, but I was lucky enough to be in one of the corrals and it thinned out quickly. I'd imagine the open start is packed

I think the key is finding the RIGHT small race. I ran a small race in Sacramento a while back, and it was a marathon just for the sake of a marathon.

Napa, on the other hand, is very special. Gorgeous course, great corner of the world, and a well executed race. And the negative elevation is a plus.

I don't know of other "desitnation" small races, but I'm sure you can find them, especially when you have so many people on these types of boards you can ping.
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Post  Diego Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:34 pm

I completely understand. Even though corrals have been introduced, they really don't help the folks in the middle of the pack. As everyone gets closer to the start, things seem even more crowded. In shorter races like the Army 10 miler, not being able to get on pace right away stinks. The start of Boston is so narrow that the claustrophobia can be unreal for the first 3 miles. At least you can get on pace quickly if you are in the first 8 corrals.

So, really there are two issues-- the claustro and the ability to get on pace quickly. Since race organizers won't adopt a simple(but costly) starting gate system that truly separates the running groups by 10-15 seconds like you might see in some of the cycling stages of the TdF, the next best thing is to line up early, ask your neighbor what their time is and move up accordingly.

I also line up on one side or the other to minimize the claustro and make it easier to hit my pace. I think using (+) affirmations the night before can also help.

On a civil disobedience note, if enough folks complained about not being able to get on pace, perhaps they could get the USATF to revoke the certification status of the race, which would hurt a lot if the race invites elite runners and pays lots of prize money.
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Post  Julie Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:28 pm

I vote for smaller races, too. I had that problem at Twin Cities because even though I lined up with the correct pace for me, I was passing walkers still at mile 6 or 7 who lined up way ahead. It was crazy. Find a nice small race and you won't have that problem.
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Post  carleenp Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:34 pm

If you want to run for time, I think the smaller races are much better. Many are just as well supported, yet you have room to move around. When I ran Chicago I was just running to finish, so I didn't care about people in my way and I kind of liked the crowds, but even then I kept thinking that it would be hard to run that one for time because you would always be dodging people and getting stressed about it. When I ran Memphis with a time goal, I appreciated that it was large enough to keep me motivated, but small enough that I never felt crowded.

With that said, I got a great time at the Shamrock Shuffle 8k, which is another very crowded Chicago race. But I think part of what helped there was that I was allowed in a corral because I had run the marathon, and I started near the front of the corral on top of it with people who really were slightly faster than I originally intended to race. So I ended up with thousands of pacers!
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Post  JohnP Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:55 pm

The big races can be lifetime events as they are so hard to navigate within. And no offense, SJ, but the pace you run at has a large group of people running around that speed so it makes it tougher for you. If you switch to a mid-size marathon, you may find you like it. For example, the FLying Pig. Grand Rapids, and a bunch of others that have 3,000 or so runners. A lot of what you want is there. I've also run marathons with 160 people and not liked some things.
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Post  Traveller Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:35 am

The Bolder Boulder 10K is huge, but they have a many wave start with the first 22 qualified based on previous performance of some kind.

They have upwards of 32,000 runners. They waves start about a minute or two apart. I started in the 24th wave and never had an issue staying on pace. However, I wasn't running it hard as I had a goal half the following weekend. Of course, to make this work they are starting waves of a couple of hours.

At the other extreme, there was a race I considered that had only a few dozen runners total. That would be a completely different matter.
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Post  Jenny O Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:51 am

SJ, I don't know what the right answer is. I ran NYC last year and LOVED it, but I planned to run it for fun from the start. I don't think I could have PR'd if I wanted to. I've also run Chicago, but it didn't seem as bad. I enjoy both big and small races, but the goals are usually different.

Good luck in going sub 4, however you decide to attack it!
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Post  Sara Jane Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:51 am

Hey all. Thanks for the insights. Obviously I know the simple answer is to run smaller races. (I am not quite THAT simple...) Wink

And I have. I have run Grandma's Marathon 4 times and I think it is an absolutely perfect size. And as I said at the end, I wasn't really asking a question - just posing some thoughts. The problem for me comes in that I like the inspiration and excitement that comes from the huge events (NYC is a VERY emotional race!)...but I am just not sure how one is supposed to actually DO what Hal always suggests: be patient and not waste energy trying to get around people. I am just not sure if that is possible.

I still believe it's possible for me to PR at NYC. Because I know others have done it (Natalie comes to mind)...Right now I am just trying to figure out the best way to do so - how I can run smart and not let myself get too frustrated by the crowds.

Regardless of the inspiration and excitement I get from the big races, though...I do still think I will do them less and less. I am changing as a runner, and my running is becoming far less about being a "participant" in events and more about truly challenging myself and pushing myself closer to my physical and mental limits. As such, it may just be time to move on...and that's OK. It's exciting, really. And I will no doubt save myself some cash by avoiding the bigger events!
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Post  Jerry Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:06 am

Some of the difficulties are not necessarily impossible to overcome, but I agree it is important to find the race one feels comfortable, passionate and feel lucky about it. I too is very picky in choosing races to gain every advantage I feel I can get.
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Post  Alex Kubacki Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:13 am

Maybe plan to run the first three or four at NY above MP, then when things clear a bit start running like 5sec or so below MP until you get back on track.
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Post  Sara Jane Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:19 am

Alex Kubacki wrote:Maybe plan to run the first three or four at NY above MP, then when things clear a bit start running like 5sec or so below MP until you get back on track.

Coach would never allow that! Smile The good news is that we (my under Wendy's tutelage) always do a slow start in races - that is, start comfortably and speedup gradually. It worked for me well at Grandma's in June. NYC forces you to start slow because the first 1.5-2 miles are uphillish.

My hope is that since I am starting in a faster wave (I am in wave 2 of 3) and put in an ambitious time (my goal time, 3:59), I will truly be running with people around that speed...I am not sure if being with faster people will actually help the problem in NYC...crowds are crowds whether everyone is moving at 9 minute miles or 11 minute miles - but somehow it feels as though it might be better in the faster wave. We'll see! I am going to try not to stress about it too much. That said, I do want to go in with a wise plan of attack. I am not running just to enjoy the scenery (though I do plan on doing that). Whether or not my plan is smart, well, that is up for debate. But I am going after it.
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Post  healdgator Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:50 pm

It is definitely a different strokes for different folks kind of deal. Having said that, there are pros and cons to both. The Corporate 5k they run here in Orlando is a mob scene. You cram 20+k people into a very, very small area and combine that with the fact that probably 2/3 of them never run any other race and you have an issue. Every race of any size that I have run in has slow people way too close to the starting line. I can never get close enough to avoid this problem. The Corporate 5k is that way x 100. I am literally weaving through people for the whole race. You just have to accept that's how it is and know you aren't going to be running your best time. The positive is that it creates an atmosphere of excitement that can't be matched.

On the flip side, I've run a few races with less than 50 people. One of them was a 10 miler where I would run long stretches without coming within 400 yards of a single person. That's tough and it almost feels just like a training run. Those aren't the best conditions for me either, personally. But I'm not dodging and passing slower people either.

The Flying Pig was a good size for me. I was weaving a little for the first couple of miles, but not too much. That was partially b/c I was just trying to start off patient, but also b/c it wasn't a massive race like NYC or something. Still, there were always people to pass, pace, follow, run with, etc. Next up is Disney. I fully expect that to be a zoo, but it will have its pros and cons as well.

And since you brought it up, Hal's "you shouldn't be weaving anyway" comment always annoyed the shit out of me. The belief that you can make up any time you lose following the crowd is absurd and naive. I'm sorry, but if you are running a half marathon and have to run at 10 minute pace for the first two miles to avoid weaving (when your plan is to run 8 min pace), you aren't making up that 4 minutes. It's not going to happen.
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Post  Diego Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:01 pm

healdgator wrote:It is definitely a different strokes for different folks kind of deal. Having said that, there are pros and cons to both. The Corporate 5k they run here in Orlando is a mob scene. You cram 20+k people into a very, very small area and combine that with the fact that probably 2/3 of them never run any other race and you have an issue. Every race of any size that I have run in has slow people way too close to the starting line. I can never get close enough to avoid this problem. The Corporate 5k is that way x 100. I am literally weaving through people for the whole race. You just have to accept that's how it is and know you aren't going to be running your best time. The positive is that it creates an atmosphere of excitement that can't be matched.

On the flip side, I've run a few races with less than 50 people. One of them was a 10 miler where I would run long stretches without coming within 400 yards of a single person. That's tough and it almost feels just like a training run. Those aren't the best conditions for me either, personally. But I'm not dodging and passing slower people either.

The Flying Pig was a good size for me. I was weaving a little for the first couple of miles, but not too much. That was partially b/c I was just trying to start off patient, but also b/c it wasn't a massive race like NYC or something. Still, there were always people to pass, pace, follow, run with, etc. Next up is Disney. I fully expect that to be a zoo, but it will have its pros and cons as well.

And since you brought it up, Hal's "you shouldn't be weaving anyway" comment always annoyed the shit out of me. The belief that you can make up any time you lose following the crowd is absurd and naive. I'm sorry, but if you are running a half marathon and have to run at 10 minute pace for the first two miles to avoid weaving (when your plan is to run 8 min pace), you aren't making up that 4 minutes. It's not going to happen.



I weave, too, and don't mind running an extra tenth or so of a mile.

It is very hard running an entire marathon by yourself. I have had to do that in smaller and larger marathons(when I found myself in no man's land behind the pace team in Chicago in 2009). Rocket City gave me the best of both worlds.
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Post  dot520 Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:14 pm

Depending on the race, I believe you can do what Hal says. When I ran Houston half a couple years ago I was boxed in for the first mile unable to move, truly unable to dodge or do anything. I was off 1.5 minutes in the first mile. The next 6 miles I was able to speed up and make up the time, still way too crowded on the streets for the amount of people, but the pace quickened. I would have been able to make my goal in the final few miles of effort if I hadn't been taken out by a zig-zagging runner who tripped me up causing a hamstring pull.

No matter the field size, it's the course that matters.

Just musing like you. Smile
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Post  Jenny O Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:26 pm

SJ--I thought of you and your dilemma while I was running the Hartford Half today. The first couple miles are very crowded. I think that you do have to do a certain amount of weaving to get into a good pace, or you could very easily get stuck behind people running at a much slower pace than you want to be running. The problem with a race like NYC is that it's crowded the whole time--but if you're smart about it and not weaving all over the place, I think you'll be fine!
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Post  Natalie Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:50 pm

SJ, I did PR in NYC but my goal was 4:15 and I was trained and on pace for 4:15 - 4:20 initially. Then I hit Brooklyn, where the corrals converged and I was completely boxed in the entire time. I ran a 4:30, but could have done much better had I been able to move. I lost a lot of time to the crowd.
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Post  Sara Jane Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:52 pm

Natalie wrote:SJ, I did PR in NYC but my goal was 4:15 and I was trained and on pace for 4:15 - 4:20 initially. Then I hit Brooklyn, where the corrals converged and I was completely boxed in the entire time. I ran a 4:30, but could have done much better had I been able to move. I lost a lot of time to the crowd.

I remember being on pace the whole time in NYC (It was 4:30)...until my knees went out over the Q-bridge. I remember the bottleneck in Brooklyn but I remember it lasting only a little while. I am hopeful that will be the case this time. I remember it being better than these D.C. races anyway - probably because the wave/colors/corrals within color breakdown. Coupled with the TRUE spacing b/w waves (and not just behind each other on the road). I am actually not worrying about it too much. Though I do wish I could attempt an "easier" race with the fitness I have right now.

Regardless, I am definitely pointing towards smaller races after this. Unless I really just want an "experience."
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Post  Dave-O Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:49 pm

I love HUGE races but then again, I'm completely pampered and get preferred starting positions where crowds aren't an issue, so, my opinion is pretty worthless to you.

I definitely think there is a legitimacy to your concern, though. While you may be able to afford giving away some time in a marathon for 3 miles, the same isn't true of a 10 miler. And if the marathon is crowded for 10 miles, that's a problem. I think your best bet is to reserve your main goal races to a mid-sized race where you're comfortable.
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