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Hanson's training?

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Post  carleenp Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:31 pm

Anyone ever do the Hanson's marathon program? I'm thinking of trying it, but the long run capping at 16 sort of freaks me out, although I am probably the ideal candidate for a shorter long run coupled with longer easy days like their program has. Anyway, just curious if any of you have used it.

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Post  mountandog Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:45 pm

Carleen, I'm in the middle of it. Being coached by one of the kids on the Hanson-Brooks Distance Project. Kind of has me freaked out too, but its more time based rather than mileage. I expect to do two 20's only this cycle, but that will take me less than 2 1/2 hours. He's limiting me there. We shall see come Boston. In fact he had me take a "break", racing a 5k last wk with only 38 miles run and only 45 miles this week. Now we hit it hard. 71 miles this week. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. If you haven't read the book, I recommend you do so, so you understand the philosophy. One KEY ASPECT - two easy days between hard workouts. Kinda makes it tough to always go long on the weekend, but he's adjusting by 2 hard one week and 1 hard the following week. I'm essentially following the plan the elites are but with less mileage. He has also talked me into running 7 days a week when I can to reduce the mileage of the other days.
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Post  Jerry Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:52 pm

mountandog wrote:Carleen, I'm in the middle of it. Being coached by one of the kids on the Hanson-Brooks Distance Project. Kind of has me freaked out too, but its more time based rather than mileage. I expect to do two 20's only this cycle, but that will take me less than 2 1/2 hours. He's limiting me there. We shall see come Boston. In fact he had me take a "break", racing a 5k last wk with only 38 miles run and only 45 miles this week. Now we hit it hard. 71 miles this week. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. If you haven't read the book, I recommend you do so, so you understand the philosophy. One KEY ASPECT - two easy days between hard workouts. Kinda makes it tough to always go long on the weekend, but he's adjusting by 2 hard one week and 1 hard the following week. I'm essentially following the plan the elites are but with less mileage. He has also talked me into running 7 days a week when I can to reduce the mileage of the other days.

What's the book title?
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Post  Schuey Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:06 am

Jerry wrote:
mountandog wrote:Carleen, I'm in the middle of it. Being coached by one of the kids on the Hanson-Brooks Distance Project. Kind of has me freaked out too, but its more time based rather than mileage. I expect to do two 20's only this cycle, but that will take me less than 2 1/2 hours. He's limiting me there. We shall see come Boston. In fact he had me take a "break", racing a 5k last wk with only 38 miles run and only 45 miles this week. Now we hit it hard. 71 miles this week. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. If you haven't read the book, I recommend you do so, so you understand the philosophy. One KEY ASPECT - two easy days between hard workouts. Kinda makes it tough to always go long on the weekend, but he's adjusting by 2 hard one week and 1 hard the following week. I'm essentially following the plan the elites are but with less mileage. He has also talked me into running 7 days a week when I can to reduce the mileage of the other days.

What's the book title?

"Hansons Marathon Method" really good book with some nice insight. I'm actually using some of the points in the book as outline for my training. Not only am I a believer in high mileage I like running the high mileage for other endeavors. But I can get with what they are doing for marathon runners. I like their concept and it does make sense to me. The book doesn't really base things of time for their plans but they do talk about how the long run should be based off time 2 to 3 hrs but then again if you follow the 25% to 30% rule for weekly mileage vs. long runs. Your long run distance will always fall into that that time frame, pretty easy to see when you do the math.

It's also interesting to see how the plans that they show in the book compared to what their elite runners do ( Luke Murphy for the example at the end of the book.) Not much anything different then anything that I read before it really is all about discipline to know that not every run has to be a barn burner but at the same time you don't want to run to slow.
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Post  fostever Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:22 pm

"20mi long runs are NO magical number." Not sure who first said that, but it's true. I've used it (Hansen) and it worked, however Boston was a sauna race so it was hard to compare it to other efforts with more favorable conditions. The step back weeks were like back to back 10 milers so you were doing it in 2 days. I believe the up weeks had like a semi-long run on the Saturday before the long runs also. At this point in my life the legs only take so much mileage until I'm at the edge of injury, so it was a decent fit for me.
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Post  Michele "1L" Keane Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:38 pm

I'm a believer in quality over quantity as I seem to break down with too much quantity, but I have not yet read the entire book. I did look at the training schedules early on, and they look a lot like what I have done in the past with the exception that I usually run at least one 20 miler during a marathon cycle, and 2-3 (3 at most) when I want to "race" that marathon. There is also the FIRST (out of Furman Un in SC) method of training which involves only three (3) quality workouts per week with xtraining or something else on the other days. I do know runners who have had success with this approach. The three workouts are pretty tough which I'm guessing is why there are only the three.

http://www.wu.ece.ufl.edu/marathon%20training-first%20marathon.pdf
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Post  JohnP Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:00 pm

I read the book over vacation and really liked it. I too would be concerned about the 16 but they seem pretty successful with it. FIRST is a good alternative but the thought of running three days a week would probably concern me as much as doing a 16 miler max. (Note: I did do the FIRST program and it went pretty well).
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Post  carleenp Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:14 pm

I read the book, which is what got me thinking about it all. I really like the overall theory behind it, especially for a slower runner such as myself who wants to keep making improvements. I wouldn't want to do the First program since I think I benefit more by running more constantly. Three days/week would not work for me. I decided to go ahead and give the Hansen classic beginner plan a try, which, although labeled "beginner" has higher overall mileage than I have previously done and 6 days of running instead of the 4-5 I normally have done. The plan peaks at 58 miles when I have normally peaked at 42-45 or so before. I plan to do more miles at the start of the program than it calls for though because is has 4-5 weeks of base building at really low miles, probably for people who really are beginners, and I already have a good base having just done the Goofy Challenge at Disney. So I figure I'll up the miles during that portion and maybe do some informal fartleks and such before the formal speed work in the program begins. If it works for me for my spring (summer actually) marathon, I'll try their classic advanced program for my fall marathon.
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Post  mountandog Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:34 pm

The Hanson's aren't saying don't do 20s. They're saying max out your long runs in the 25%-30% range. So unless you're running more than 80 miles a week you probably won't be doing 20s. They also don't want you running more than 3 hours - so if you can't run about 7mph then 20 isn't in the cards.

I had an interesting conversation with Joanie Samuelson a couple of years ago and she told me she doesn't think you need to run more than 17 miles to prep for a marathon. She had pretty good success. She runs about 70 miles a week now, so 17 is just about right.
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Post  fostever Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:59 pm

mountandog wrote:The Hanson's aren't saying don't do 20s. They're saying max out your long runs in the 25%-30% range. So unless you're running more than 80 miles a week you probably won't be doing 20s. They also don't want you running more than 3 hours - so if you can't run about 7mph then 20 isn't in the cards.

I had an interesting conversation with Joanie Samuelson a couple of years ago and she told me she doesn't think you need to run more than 17 miles to prep for a marathon. She had pretty good success. She runs about 70 miles a week now, so 17 is just about right.
I was referring to the "Less is more Hanson program." I'm guessing the book's point basically supports that 25%-30% range assuming their average RW reader fits that model to peak distance @ 16.
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Post  Jerry Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:27 pm

Jerry's 20 is at 2:55-3:05 time range, just saying.
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Post  Michele "1L" Keane Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:52 am

Honestly, 20s are not necessary in my opinion unless you are going for 3 hr PRs. I have run plenty of marathons fairly well (including a sub-4 at Boston in 2009) on max runs of 18 miles. However, many of us (and me included sometimes especially if it has been a while since I ran a marathon or ran one well) need the mental boost of the "2" in front of the mileage number of a long run.
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Post  mountandog Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:53 pm

Jerry wrote:Jerry's 20 is at 2:55-3:05 time range, just saying.

Me too. That's why I'll be doing a couple of 20s. Just sayin.
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Post  mountandog Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:54 pm

Michele "1L" Keane wrote:Honestly, 20s are not necessary in my opinion unless you are going for 3 hr PRs. I have run plenty of marathons fairly well (including a sub-4 at Boston in 2009) on max runs of 18 miles. However, many of us (and me included sometimes especially if it has been a while since I ran a marathon or ran one well) need the mental boost of the "2" in front of the mileage number of a long run.



Mental part is important. If it takes a 2, it takes a 2.
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Post  carleenp Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:38 pm

fostever wrote:
mountandog wrote:The Hanson's aren't saying don't do 20s. They're saying max out your long runs in the 25%-30% range. So unless you're running more than 80 miles a week you probably won't be doing 20s. They also don't want you running more than 3 hours - so if you can't run about 7mph then 20 isn't in the cards.

I had an interesting conversation with Joanie Samuelson a couple of years ago and she told me she doesn't think you need to run more than 17 miles to prep for a marathon. She had pretty good success. She runs about 70 miles a week now, so 17 is just about right.
I was referring to the "Less is more Hanson program." I'm guessing the book's point basically supports that 25%-30% range assuming their average RW reader fits that model to peak distance @ 16.

The book discusses that quite a bit and seems to be aimed mainly at the runners who would fall in that camp of stopping at 16 miles. I certainly fall in it since I will be peaking at 58 miles/week.
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Post  carleenp Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:41 pm

Michele "1L" Keane wrote:Honestly, 20s are not necessary in my opinion unless you are going for 3 hr PRs. I have run plenty of marathons fairly well (including a sub-4 at Boston in 2009) on max runs of 18 miles. However, many of us (and me included sometimes especially if it has been a while since I ran a marathon or ran one well) need the mental boost of the "2" in front of the mileage number of a long run.

That is my big concern. I get a lot of psychological boost from a good 20. But I'm going to follow the program and just do the 16s. Looking at the miles and speed work in it, I'm sure by the 16 on those weeks that will be all I can do anyway, which is sort of the point of their program anyway. They want you to be tired for the long runs. It will be interesting to see how it works for me.
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Post  mountandog Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:47 pm

carleenp wrote:
Michele "1L" Keane wrote:Honestly, 20s are not necessary in my opinion unless you are going for 3 hr PRs. I have run plenty of marathons fairly well (including a sub-4 at Boston in 2009) on max runs of 18 miles. However, many of us (and me included sometimes especially if it has been a while since I ran a marathon or ran one well) need the mental boost of the "2" in front of the mileage number of a long run.

That is my big concern. I get a lot of psychological boost from a good 20. But I'm going to follow the program and just do the 16s. Looking at the miles and speed work in it, I'm sure by the 16 on those weeks that will be all I can do anyway, which is sort of the point of their program anyway. They want you to be tired for the long runs. It will be interesting to see how it works for me.

yup - what they call cumulative fatigue. They want that 16 to simulate as closely as possible the last 16 of the marathon, not the first 16. They want you to be tired going into it. Makes sense in theory.
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Post  carleenp Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:15 pm

mountandog wrote:
carleenp wrote:
Michele "1L" Keane wrote:Honestly, 20s are not necessary in my opinion unless you are going for 3 hr PRs. I have run plenty of marathons fairly well (including a sub-4 at Boston in 2009) on max runs of 18 miles. However, many of us (and me included sometimes especially if it has been a while since I ran a marathon or ran one well) need the mental boost of the "2" in front of the mileage number of a long run.

That is my big concern. I get a lot of psychological boost from a good 20. But I'm going to follow the program and just do the 16s. Looking at the miles and speed work in it, I'm sure by the 16 on those weeks that will be all I can do anyway, which is sort of the point of their program anyway. They want you to be tired for the long runs. It will be interesting to see how it works for me.

yup - what they call cumulative fatigue. They want that 16 to simulate as closely as possible the last 16 of the marathon, not the first 16. They want you to be tired going into it. Makes sense in theory.

Yeah. I totally buy the theory of it. And, for a slower runner like me, it makes sense. I always feel pretty beat up after a 20, while I recovery quickly from a 16. I just know that psychologically no 20 or even 18 will be hard for me. But I am committed to trying it!
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Post  mountandog Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:25 pm

good luck. keep us posted.
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Post  carleenp Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:44 am

mountandog wrote:good luck. keep us posted.

Thanks! Once I get into the main part of it, which won't be until Marchl or so, I'll probably start a blog here on it. My race is Missoula, MT in July.
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Post  Julie Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:34 pm

ooh, that is a good marathon, per my 50 states x 3 (he's completed them 3x now) friend. It's on my list! Very Happy
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Post  carleenp Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:38 pm

Julie wrote:ooh, that is a good marathon, per my 50 states x 3 (he's completed them 3x now) friend. It's on my list! Very Happy

I've read all sorts of good things about it. We have friends in Missoula and are also going to make a vacation of it by spending 10 days and going to Glacier National and Yellowstone.

I like collecting states too, but can't imagine being a 50 stater x3! Shocked
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Post  Julie Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:53 pm

He's retired. I think it helps. Although I can't imagine running that many marathons at age 73!
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Post  carleenp Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:22 pm

Julie wrote:He's retired. I think it helps. Although I can't imagine running that many marathons at age 73!

Wow! I can only hope to be a 1x 50 stater at that age (and probably not, although I like collecting states) ! I'm impressed!
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Post  mul21 Thu May 09, 2013 7:47 am

After seeing the success Carleen had with the Hanson's plan, I dug into it a little deeper and from a few different spot around the webs, managed to come up with what I think is a basic template for their advanced plan:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhLIgMdWJFc9dFpPenA0eEgzM2ZjTk5zM281SHhsX2c&usp=sharing

I haven't been able to post the spreadsheet itself, so there's a link to a Google doc. My questions are:

1. Is that what the plan should look like? Specifically, are the speed and strength workouts right and do I have them in the right order?

2. Has anyone else used this with success? If so, what modifications did you make, if any, and what were they?
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