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Let's Re-Open the Crossfit and Crossfit Endurance Discussion

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Post  Ben Z Tue May 01, 2012 10:24 pm

Came across Steve Magness' POV on CF and CFE. He's not a fan.

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2012/01/crossfit-endurance-tabata-sprints-and.html

Lots of good information here from the guy who Alberto Salazar sought out directly to be his scientific advisor.

From his summary:

Theory- It goes against all known scientific theory for how endurance performance should be improved and how it actually happens.

Practice- No good runners do it.  We know from history what happens and what kind of performance you get even if you do a lot of high intensity work with very little volume.

What do you think? Do you buy in to the CF hype?
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Post  fostever Wed May 02, 2012 10:50 am

Ben Z wrote:Came across Steve Magness' POV on CF and CFE. He's not a fan.

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2012/01/crossfit-endurance-tabata-sprints-and.html

Lots of good information here from the guy who Alberto Salazar sought out directly to be his scientific advisor.

From his summary:

Theory- It goes against all known scientific theory for how endurance performance should be improved and how it actually happens.

Practice- No good runners do it. We know from history what happens and what kind of performance you get even if you do a lot of high intensity work with very little volume.

What do you think? Do you buy in to the CF hype?
Thanks Ben, Last year my physical therapist suggested that this CFE thing was the future of running and gave me an article on it. I knew it was bunk when I saw there was basically NO long runs. Lot's of high intensity with no recovery runs and lots of strength training. Some of the strength training I use to offset muscle imbalances so CF itself has some value in the development of some good routines targeting muscle groups, but this whole notion of being the future of endurance training is absurd. Been around long enough to smell a fad of marketing.
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Post  Mike MacLellan Wed May 02, 2012 11:02 am

Some thoughts I had while reading this:


"their misunderstanding of VO2max as being equal to or critical to performance." (and the whole discussion of VO2max)
I think this somewhat undermines the importance of VO2max as an indicator and limiter... And that's been established long before CFE came into existence. I've seen plenty of graphs and raw data that compare race times (long distance!) to VO2max, showing a negative correlation between the two (race times go down, VO2max goes up).
At least, that's how I've always understood it. Just because you have a VO2max of, say, 65, doesn't mean you'll run a speedy fast marathon; however, isn't it an indicator of your potential?

"You have to know what pre-fatiguing muscles does to the subsequent training effect."
Which is? I'm curious because we're always told to work out AFTER a run, not before. But if you're just going for base easy miles, wouldn't that pre-fatigue be good for endurance?



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Post  mul21 Wed May 02, 2012 5:14 pm

Mike MacLellan wrote:Some thoughts I had while reading this:


"their misunderstanding of VO2max as being equal to or critical to performance." (and the whole discussion of VO2max)
I think this somewhat undermines the importance of VO2max as an indicator and limiter... And that's been established long before CFE came into existence. I've seen plenty of graphs and raw data that compare race times (long distance!) to VO2max, showing a negative correlation between the two (race times go down, VO2max goes up).
At least, that's how I've always understood it. Just because you have a VO2max of, say, 65, doesn't mean you'll run a speedy fast marathon; however, isn't it an indicator of your potential?

"You have to know what pre-fatiguing muscles does to the subsequent training effect."
Which is? I'm curious because we're always told to work out AFTER a run, not before. But if you're just going for base easy miles, wouldn't that pre-fatigue be good for endurance?


It's just like the McMillan calculator. If you're properly trained to run a race of X distance, Y is an approximation of your time. So yeah, if you run a 400m or 800m race at what is equivalent to a 65 vO2max, then if you stretch out your endurance you'll be able to run the corresponding vO2max marathon time. Like he says though, you can increase your vO2 max all you want at 800m, but it's not going to translate to a half or full performance wise because you don't have endurance specificity.
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Post  ounce Wed May 02, 2012 10:52 pm

I've looked at the CFE program and decided against it. But regular CrossFit is something I believe will help runners and a whole lot of other people, too.
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Post  Ben Z Wed May 02, 2012 11:36 pm

I'm a big believer in doing strength training to help with muscle imbalances. However, given the lack of individualism in CF I'm not sure it's the best way to correct these imbalances. Plus, the risk of injury seems quite high.
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Post  Martin VW Thu May 03, 2012 9:03 am

Let me give this a try.

I can't speak to what is happening in the rest of the country, but here in New England, CrossFit isn't glitzy, isn't glamorous, doesn't make any claims about being "buff by summer" - a poster hanging at my traditional "fitness center" that I find ridiculous, unless you're just a few lbs away from that six pack to start with. They're bare bones, no nonsense, functional gym spaces with people working the asses off.

As for CrossFit Endurance, well, how do we know unless we've tried it? I'm old enough to know that in the 70's and '80's, the predominant marathon training philosophy was almost 100% LSD and was done by people with bodies that were built for endurance, versus speed. In fact, that was why I never attempted a marathon before 2007. I was in "CrossFit-like" shape in my "playing days" in my 20s and 30s, but I assumed that my body, specifically my joints, wouldn't stand up to the pounding of 80 MPW. When I saw that completing a marathon was completely achievable on half that mileage, I set down the path. After dabbling with FIRST training - which isn't THAT different from CFE - for my first 10K, I bought a McMillan plan that was based on my doing low mileage, with about 50% of my workouts including a significant percentage of the training being at paces faster than MP. Again, not that different from CFE.

So, who's to say they aren't right, that if you make the muscles strong enough in other ways and dramatically improve your body composition that we can't be faster in endurance events? Plus, don't forget, endurance events encompass more than the marathon. Outside of our little slice of the running world, a 10K is considered an endurance event.

But, since the focus here is principally on the marathon, take a look at this quote from the CFE website:

Eat clean (lots of veggies, little fruit and starch, lean meats, essential fats, nuts, no grain, no dairy, no bread, no sugar, no GMO, no refined or processed foods), train like a freak and make every meter and every rep mean something.

Now, can an awful lot of marathoners cut time off their PRs by improving muscular strength and dramatically change their body composition and diet?

My answer, individually? I think I improved more by running more LSD miles. That was my weakness. My muscle composition is predominantly fast twitch. So, doing 16 runs of 18+ in 19 weeks, and having 9 of those 16 be between 20 and 26 miles, had me ready for a PR in Boston. But, I wasn't ready to take a chance on an unproven method. I was finishing up a rather brief marathoning career.

What about the person that has endurance as their strength? Isn't it possible that the CFE method could unlock more of their potential? Or, at least improve their VO2Max and body composition going forward? One step back to take two steps forward?

I have discussions about quality vs. quantity all the time. A friend at work has an 8th grader that already has accepted a full ride to play hockey at BC, the reigning national champion. All of his training is about explosivness. I talk with him about the importance of building endurance to performance at the end of a shift. I use Alex Ovechkin as my poster child, whose career exploded after he trained with the Russian half marathon champion.

Maybe that next marathon following CFE would be a miserable experience. Guess what? The three that I raced have all been miserable experiences anyway, especially the final 10K.

But, you'd have to join a different cult. Smile
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Post  Michele "1L" Keane Thu May 03, 2012 12:19 pm

Hi Martin - did you know that Mark Messier ran NY last year. I went to the Rangers-Jets game after the marathon and he is the Rangers announcer. I beat him by 30 min, but he still looks like a hockey player to me with a very strong, upper body and shoulders (yes, I can stare at hockey players my age, just not my daughter's, right?). Anyway, he talked about the importance of endurance for hockey and apparently started running in the latter part of his career.

(FYI - my daughter is going to BU - that other good hockey school in Boston. She was not happy after the Beanpot this year and with the fact that BU was ranked higher than BC for most of the season until their senior players got attitudes and wasted their careers.)

I agree that CFE can't be far from the First program. I didn't love CF when I tried it, but that is just because it wasn't for me. One of my running friends loves it and it has helped her strength (not speed) but she is an ultra runner.
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Post  ounce Thu May 03, 2012 12:39 pm

Ben Z wrote:I'm a big believer in doing strength training to help with muscle imbalances. However, given the lack of individualism in CF I'm not sure it's the best way to correct these imbalances. Plus, the risk of injury seems quite high.

The workouts are individually scaled. I have a weak upper body, so anything involving upper body had me working on the lighter weights with the girls. Didn't bug me a bit. I was executing what I could execute. But if dead lifts are on the schedule, I can deadlift my bodyweight.

And if one is taught proper technique coupled with using the appropriate weights, the risk of injury is not high.
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Post  Mike MacLellan Thu May 03, 2012 12:46 pm

I think Oz, Martin VW, and Ben have brought a really important component into this discussion:

The actual local CF/E chapter itself. In southern California, we now have a TON of CF-type gyms and groups. Not all are associated with CF, but it's the same idea. The people show up at races and perform reasonably well, though their "your workout is my warm-up" shirts are annoying as shit. In fact, the winner of a local 10k a couple years back was associated with that group - he demolished the field, running 5:2x splits.

On the other hand, quite a few of them are meaty. Meaning: suck down a protein shake and 3 cans of tuna for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and scoff at "twiggy" runners that they could smash in a sprint.

I believe the original article posted is warning against the "cult" of CF/CFE type programs. You'd hope we'd all know this already, but anything that claims to be the end-all solution to something is full of shit. Unfortunately, maybe our obsessive tendencies get some of us wrapped up in the hype and cause time-proven training strategies to go out the window?
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Post  Martin VW Thu May 03, 2012 1:28 pm

Michele "1L" Keane wrote:Hi Martin - did you know that Mark Messier ran NY last year. I went to the Rangers-Jets game after the marathon and he is the Rangers announcer. I beat him by 30 min, but he still looks like a hockey player to me with a very strong, upper body and shoulders (yes, I can stare at hockey players my age, just not my daughter's, right?). Anyway, he talked about the importance of endurance for hockey and apparently started running in the latter part of his career.


The middle ground that my co-worker and I have arrived at is that his pheeenom son's a prototypical Jerry York / BC player. He's going to get more notice by scouts based on his explosive, short-burst speed until his college career is done. Think, football combine workouts. Hockey has the same things - full out VO2Max tests on exercise bikes, stuff like that. At the college level, only what, 4% of D1 players are considered elite talents? He can beat the other 96% on sheer speed.

But, if he "makes it," endurance plays a bigger role. It allows for longer shifts, so you are scoring goals against tired opponents, and it allows for faster recovery during stoppages of play. Watching the 3 OT win by the Rangers last night showed how important muscular endurance is.

My son, who is not anywhere close to being as talented as this boy, has physical size and muscular strength going for him. He loved CrossFit, he loves strength training. But, I also build his endurance engine in the off season, because he gets tired faster pushing his 130 lbs around than his 65 lb opponents do, so he needs to not BE that "tired opponent." That should get him through his HS days. Beyond that, I don't pretend to have that crystal ball.

Mike MacLellan wrote: I believe the original article posted is warning against the "cult" of CF/CFE type programs. You'd hope we'd all know this already, but anything that claims to be the end-all solution to something is full of shit. Unfortunately, maybe our obsessive tendencies get some of us wrapped up in the hype and cause time-proven training strategies to go out the window?

It IS cult-like. The guy that I know that does it pretty much insisted on the kids on the team adopting a Paleo diet whenever they were around him, which we felt was going a little further than a youth coach has a right to intrude in a kid's life.

But, my son did get recognized for being the only kid that completed every single CrossFit "homework" assignment during the off season - with a little support scheduling-wise from his dad. Smile
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Post  Ben Z Thu May 03, 2012 5:59 pm

Personally, I'm only concerned about improving my own performance over the marathon distance at the moment. For this reason I try to copy (at my own level) what the best marathoners do. They don't do CFE.
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Post  ounce Thu May 03, 2012 6:21 pm

Mike MacLellan wrote:On the other hand, quite a few of them are meaty. Meaning: suck down a protein shake and 3 cans of tuna for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and scoff at "twiggy" runners that they could smash in a sprint.

You forgot the sweet potatoes.
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Post  Mike MacLellan Thu May 03, 2012 7:42 pm

ounce wrote:
Mike MacLellan wrote:On the other hand, quite a few of them are meaty. Meaning: suck down a protein shake and 3 cans of tuna for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and scoff at "twiggy" runners that they could smash in a sprint.

You forgot the sweet potatoes.

Too many carbs. Besides, those would make the menu palatable.
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Post  ounce Thu May 03, 2012 8:24 pm

Mike MacLellan wrote:
ounce wrote:
Mike MacLellan wrote:On the other hand, quite a few of them are meaty. Meaning: suck down a protein shake and 3 cans of tuna for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and scoff at "twiggy" runners that they could smash in a sprint.

You forgot the sweet potatoes.

Too many carbs. Besides, those would make the menu palatable.

At the risk of being serious, actually sweet potatoes are loved by the CF bunch, especially those that do the annual CF competitions. They will eat them between heats to help refuel.
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Post  Mike MacLellan Thu May 03, 2012 8:39 pm

ounce wrote:
Mike MacLellan wrote:
ounce wrote:
Mike MacLellan wrote:On the other hand, quite a few of them are meaty. Meaning: suck down a protein shake and 3 cans of tuna for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and scoff at "twiggy" runners that they could smash in a sprint.

You forgot the sweet potatoes.

Too many carbs. Besides, those would make the menu palatable.

At the risk of being serious, actually sweet potatoes are loved by the CF bunch, especially those that do the annual CF competitions. They will eat them between heats to help refuel.

Learned something new. Though I'm 99% positive (without even looking) that their justification for this is that they have a super-low GI rating.
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Post  ounce Thu May 03, 2012 10:51 pm

Mike MacLellan wrote:
ounce wrote:
Mike MacLellan wrote:
ounce wrote:
Mike MacLellan wrote:On the other hand, quite a few of them are meaty. Meaning: suck down a protein shake and 3 cans of tuna for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and scoff at "twiggy" runners that they could smash in a sprint.

You forgot the sweet potatoes.

Too many carbs. Besides, those would make the menu palatable.

At the risk of being serious, actually sweet potatoes are loved by the CF bunch, especially those that do the annual CF competitions. They will eat them between heats to help refuel.

Learned something new. Though I'm 99% positive (without even looking) that their justification for this is that they have a super-low GI rating.

Doing Paleo isn't really too bizarre, it just goes against conventional wisdom. Any fiber you lose from cutting out grains, you get back from the fiber in veggies. Any protein you lose from cutting out legumes, you get back by eating meat. Paleos really cut back or don't eat refined sugar or sweeteners like high fructose corn syrup.

Livestock allowed to graze on grass, instead of corn, and not shot up with hormones is better for it and therefore better for us. Doing Paleo as an endurance athlete got the green light from Dr. Loren Cordain, who developed the Paleo Diet, to carbo load on rice and pasta (I believe it's page 19 of "Paleo Diet for Athletes"), although rice is preferred because it's less processed.

Paleo people just, at least, try to minimize processed foods and eliminate sugar, which is what a diabetic would do to keep their blood sugar lower. Mark Sisson, who wrote Primal Blueprint, figures people will get a benefit from going Paleo, if they follow the diet 80% of the time.

It'll never go mainstream or get government blessing because the farmers would go ape shit to suggest grains are not good for you and because it's more expensive and less convenient to cut out processed foods, than to purchase grass-fed beef or eat eggs from free to roam chickens.

It's everybody's choice how they eat and spend their money. Thank God for that and thanks for your time.
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Post  Dave-O Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:10 pm

I like Gawker's take, especially Point #2.

http://gawker.com/5928989/the-problems-with-crossfit
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Post  ounce Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:46 am

It is a non-specific, general, overall workout. But is that really a bad thing? There are exercises many people probably have never done at an air conditioned gym.

Some people have strength, but no stamina and vice versa. I still can't do a pull up or a handstand push up. If a WOD involves running in multiple rounds with any kind of weight lifting, I will kick ass and take names each and every time.

And last year, it helped my running because it strengthened my leg muscles, other than quads. In past years, after a long run, my quads ached. But last year after a long run, my quads never ached because the other muscles in my lower body were stronger and better able to take a more prominent role in getting me around.

I haven't done CrossFit year round, because I'm a marathoner and marathoning comes first. I also do yoga at CrossFit because it's free and I'm cheap. Yoga helped my running, too.
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Post  ssilvert Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:05 am

Ben Z wrote:Personally, I'm only concerned about improving my own performance over the marathon distance at the moment. For this reason I try to copy (at my own level) what the best marathoners do. They don't do CFE.

+1

Ben has the right answer.

And if your goal is to run your fastest 10K? Train like the best 10K runners.

If your goal is to be the best hockey player you can be? Train like the best hockey players.

Trust the experts. Trust the experts. And trust the experts. Experts aren't always right, but they are right a lot more than anyone else. That's one of the things that makes them experts.

Stan

(BTW, climate change deniers and young earth creationists could learn a lesson here too.)
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Post  Martin VW Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:32 am

In 1997 I interviewed Tim Forbes, who was running Forbes Inc. (Steve was off running for President). He said that I should pull all my money out of the market, that a correction was imminent. This man had access to the very best market intelligence.

He was right, but his timing was off. By about three years. And I would have missed out on the largest percentage gains in the history of the market.

I recently came across a 2009 WSJ article where the "experts" said there was no market for tablet computers, and questioned Apple putting so much effort into development. "They" said that Apple was creating something for a niche market. People had their smart phones, they had their lightweight laptops. How large could the iPad market possibly be?

I don't share the same level of confidence that the way we train today is necessarily the "best" way. Even though I'm recognized as an "expert" by my field, in my experence, "expert" opinions are off by a wide enough margin that we should not ever stop challenging convention. Throughout history, people have been ridiculed, shunned, exiled, stoned, burned at the stake for their heresy.

I'm not suggesting we all start to do CFE. I'm not even a fan. But I'm not ruling out the possibility that marathon training could look a lot different 20 years from now than it does today. I learned my lesson based on the amount of change in the LAST 20 years.
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Post  ssilvert Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:32 pm

Martin VW wrote:I recently came across a 2009 WSJ article where the "experts" said there was no market for tablet computers, and questioned Apple putting so much effort into development. "They" said that Apple was creating something for a niche market. People had their smart phones, they had their lightweight laptops. How large could the iPad market possibly be?
Can you link to that article? I don't know what kind of expert might have said that. In 2009, the most respected expert in mass-market computing was Steve Jobs. I don't know anyone who bet against him, except maybe his competition.

That leads us to another useful maxim. "A man will believe anything if his job depends on it."

Martin VW wrote:Throughout history, people have been ridiculed, shunned, exiled, stoned, burned at the stake for challenging convention. I'm not suggesting we all start to do CFE. I'm not even a fan. But I'm not ruling out the possibility that marathon training could look a lot different 20 years from now than it does today. I learned my lesson based on the amount of change in the LAST 20 years.
That's true. And the thing that makes those innovators successful is that they are better experts. When experts disagree, you have to make a choice. The classic book on the subject is "Structure of Scientific Revolutions" by Thomas Khun. It's rather short, and not really a science book so much as it is a history of thought. It's the book that gave us the word "paradigm", which doesn't mean what you probably think it means.

I'm not so sure that marathon training looks a lot different today than it did 20 years ago, or even 50 years ago. I've read "The Lore of Running" section on how different runners trained through the ages. What always struck me was how much they had in common. There have been incremental improvements, but the principles really haven't changed much since the very early days.

I don't dispute that marathon training could look a lot different in 20 years, but I doubt it. It would require a true paradigm shift. As Khun points out, a true paradigm shift is extremely rare.

Stan
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Post  Martin VW Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:53 pm

Very topical, Stan, given what's happening in London as I type. I'm only sorry that these Boards haven't yet gotten to the point where these kinds of debates generate multiple points and counterpoints. Who can forget Sugar Free Red Bull and the iPod?

We're seeing paradigm shifts at the most elite levels of sports an accelerating clip. As I read a feature article in today's WSJ about how the bodies of athletes are getting bigger, I think it makes that pretty clear: Before Usain Bolt, it was thought that 6'5" runners couldn't be elite sprinters. In the next fortnight, Missy Franklin will change the mechanics of the backstroke, single-handedly. Canoeing (?), wrestling (Greco Roman, not WWE), tennis, high jump: the very recent paradigm shifts of all of these sports are discussed.

Should Bolt's early handlers have steered him to the Jamaican bobsledding team because of his size? Should a coach have told a the 17 year old Franklin to get serious about her sport, and swim and train the way everyone else did, or find herself another sport?

We don't know when a paradigm shift is coming. I personally don't believe in training by recreational athletes that mimics elites, really in any sport. Too much has happened physiologically over the course of their lifetime of devoting themselves to their chosen sport versus our dabbling in many. As I think about how much different my first marathon training cycle was from my last, I feel pretty sure that I'm not anywhere close to being able to pattern my training based on what the best in the sport do.

I don't have a link to the article. Since I fail to see how a tablet will fill a need that my smart phone and laptop don't already, I don't have an iPad. I was reading an old print edition. Smile
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Post  ssilvert Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:45 am

Martin VW wrote:Very topical, Stan, given what's happening in London as I type. I'm only sorry that these Boards haven't yet gotten to the point where these kinds of debates generate multiple points and counterpoints. Who can forget Sugar Free Red Bull and the iPod?
Yeah, those were the days.

Martin VW wrote:We're seeing paradigm shifts at the most elite levels of sports an accelerating clip. As I read a feature article in today's WSJ about how the bodies of athletes are getting bigger, I think it makes that pretty clear: Before Usain Bolt, it was thought that 6'5" runners couldn't be elite sprinters. In the next fortnight, Missy Franklin will change the mechanics of the backstroke, single-handedly. Canoeing (?), wrestling (Greco Roman, not WWE), tennis, high jump: the very recent paradigm shifts of all of these sports are discussed.
I highly recommend that you read Khun's classic work on this subject. It will give you perspective on how progress actually happens. Of the sports you mention, I only know enough about tennis to comment but I can say unequivocally that there has never been a paradigm shift in that sport.

In Track and Field, the only thing I can think of that might fit the definition is the Fosbury Flop. I don't mean to be a twit and quibble about the definition of paradigm shift. Almost everyone today misuses the term and in that sense it has taken on a different meaning. But the original meaning of paradigm shift is a lot more interesting than the one used by bloviatiors in today's business world. I do wish we could have a discussion on Khun's terms.

Martin VW wrote:Should Bolt's early handlers have steered him to the Jamaican bobsledding team because of his size?
I think his size would have hampered him even more in the bobsled. I doubt that there were many who said Bolt was pursuing the wrong sport. Now if he had chosen distance running, that would be interesting.

Martin VW wrote:Should a coach have told a the 17 year old Franklin to get serious about her sport, and swim and train the way everyone else did, or find herself another sport?
No clue. How was her training different?

Martin VW wrote:We don't know when a paradigm shift is coming.
To the person driving the shift, it has already come. And there are tell-tale signs that an expert can spot. That's what Khun teaches.

Martin VW wrote:I personally don't believe in training by recreational athletes that mimics elites, really in any sport. Too much has happened physiologically over the course of their lifetime of devoting themselves to their chosen sport versus our dabbling in many. As I think about how much different my first marathon training cycle was from my last, I feel pretty sure that I'm not anywhere close to being able to pattern my training based on what the best in the sport do.
I think we disagree here. You have to adjust any training plan to your individual situation, but the principles of training a recreational athlete are exactly the same as the professional. The closer you can get to the ideal set forth by the experts, the more successful you will be.

Martin VW wrote:I don't have a link to the article. Since I fail to see how a tablet will fill a need that my smart phone and laptop don't already, I don't have an iPad. I was reading an old print edition. Smile
Yeah, paper is often the superior technology. It's more portable and the batteries never fail.

The tablet computer actually did find some measure of success before the iPad. They were popular in hospitals where doctors and nurses needed a computer they could carry from room to room. The genius of Steve Jobs was that he recognized that people would like to have a computer they could use in front of the TV. Laptops really aren't so great for that.

I personally don't use any Apple products. I'm a technologist who doesn't even own a smart phone. I no longer use an iPod while I run. I've found that being connected all the time means missing out on life. So computer time is computer time. The rest is real world.

John Lennon famously said, "Life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans." I offer a modern take on that.

"Life is what you are missing while you are busy staring at your devices."

Stan
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