Davy Jones, runner and vegetarian, dies of a heart attack

I'd be curious to hear other thoughts...

Some of you have heard about my old man's thoughts on sudden death in runners and possible causes. If not, one thing that he has seen in years of study that is very common is the fact that people redline...that is they train and train and train, get their body far too lean for their body to survive. Its the difference between being fit and being healthy. Ryan Shea comes to mind.

I came across this that has some good comments on the issue:

http://content.bandzoogle.com/users/cippianhotmail/files/Athletes-Fit-But-Unhealthy.pdf

And in the case of diet, he does not believe in a meatless diet. In fact, in his book he says you need, as a moderate exerciser, 30-35% of your diet coming from fat, that cholesterol is one of life's building blocks, and that vegans don't live as long as carnivores. There is a chapter on diet in his book on the topic of diet.

Anywho, what got me to ramble is something my buddy sent me about Davy Jones...got the grey matter moving.

Drink more beer and eat chili!

http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/29/showbiz/obit-davy-jones/?hpt=hp_c1

"He
was a vegetarian, and there was not an ounce of fat on the guy," Jacobson
said. "He lived on the beach in Florida and ran miles every morning. This
is the last person I expected this to happen to. He couldn't have been in
better shape."

As a former vegan who studied the diet extensively before/during 8 years of doing it, I have to disagree with just about every assertion you just made regarding vegetarianism and veganism. For every piece of evidence either of us has, I'm well aware that the other will be able to counter it with their own citation.

What I will say is that it's easier to be "stupid" when you're vegan than when you're a meat-eater. Many vegetarians/vegans simply cut out a food group or groups and don't replace those nutrients. So, yes, it's easy to be "fit" and "unhealthy" as a vegetarian/vegan. I'd bet it's no more prominent among that group than meat-eaters, though, unless the vegetarianism/veganism is related to a larger problem of an eating disorder or body image issues.

Your liver (mainly, though all cells do it) produces all the cholesterol your body needs. It also repairs and detoxifies your blood cells. Because of this, I do agree that having some cholesterol in the diet will help with recovery, as your cells can focus on doing other things. But essential? No.

I'll be the first to admit I have a family bias (call it the Stockholm syndrome maybe), and know that it is easy to take any viewpoint to an extreme. And I only bring up what I hear, vs. my father, who has research that supports his thoughts (and most anyone can find research to find whatever they are looking to support).

Just curious, are you a carnivore now?

I'll try to get the relevant pages of the chapter on here for review when I have the time.

I understand. Old habits die hard for me, so I'm still defensive about my bygone diet.

I eat fish now, somewhat regularly. Eggs, too. I think those are both good examples of how blanket statements about a diet can be misleading, however... Take wild-caught Alaskan salmon vs. the Atlantic farmed shit. The former is full of natural, healthy Omega-3s, whereas the latter is substantially lower in pretty much every nutrient. Same goes with the eggs. Chickens who graze on grass, bugs, etc., will produce eggs high in Omega-3s without the addition of flax to their diets; the only way to replicate those numbers in unnaturally-raised chickens is by supplementing their diet, which is unhealthy for the birds themselves.

So, do I think a nice fillet of salmon is nutritionally superior to whatever vegan-meat-alternative you can find? You betcha. Do I think that the vegan alternative is better than the farmed shit? You betcha.

But with that said, back onto the topic - I hadn't heard of Ryan Shay before. Was it concluded that his death was due to something relating to having low body fat? Or was it just one of the haunting occurrences of a runner dying during/after a race?

@Mike MacLellan wrote:I eat fish now, somewhat regularly. Eggs, too.

But with that said, back onto the topic - I hadn't heard of Ryan Shay before. Was it concluded that his death was due to something relating to having low body fat? Or was it just one of the haunting occurrences of a runner dying during/after a race?

And interestingly my source of one says 2 eggs a day "will tend to encourage you to lose weight. Six eggs a day will not change your total serum cholesterol but could raise your HDL by as much as 40% a day" (so much for eggs being bad). And he would agree that the Omega-3s are key.

Anywho - re: Ryan Shay...I guess the cause was a heart attack and that he had an enlarged heart. But the question my dad asks is if that is a symptom of being fit and not healthy? More of an anecdote than anything else, but your heart does need fats to function.

i'm no expert, but I always believe that often those of us who think we are eating healthy and exercising neglect to visit our physicians and often succumb to a pre-disposition we thought we could literally run away from. Just because he was a vegetarian and ran a lot did not mean he didn't have high cholesterol or some other predisposition.

@Michele "1L" Keane wrote:i'm no expert, but I always believe that often those of us who think we are eating healthy and exercising neglect to visit our physicians and often succumb to a pre-disposition we thought we could literally run away from. Just because he was a vegetarian and ran a lot did not mean he didn't have high cholesterol or some other predisposition.

Agree! Ignorance is probably the leading cause of death.

So much is genetic and some of my marathoner friends who are very healthy and fit still have to take meds for blood pressure or cholesterol (or both) thanks to mostly genetics. I admit I'm much healthier as a runner than I was pre-running but some things you can't run from (or even healthfully eat away from).

Neil Diamond wrote the popular Monkee's song "I'm a Believer".

@Bob wrote:Neil Diamond wrote the popular Monkee's song "I'm a Believer".

You are correct young man.

Also Carole King and Gerry Goffin wrote hits for the Monkee's along with Tom Boyce and Bobby Hart. When Boyce wrote "Last Train To Clarksville" he got the idea for the lyrics from the Beatles tune "Paperback Writer".

It was not until the later days of the Monkee's when they started writing their own songs, which by the way never came close to being big hits of the earlier songs.

Jimi Hendrix opened for The Monkees. How 'bout that?!

@Bob wrote:Jimi Hendrix opened for The Monkees. How 'bout that?!

Correct again Mr. Bob! I bet Jimi was higher then a kite also!

And Michael Nesmith's mother invented White Out. Good night, everyone!

We now return you to the previously scheduled dietary discussion already in progress.

This has only been a test if it was an actually emergency............

My son's golf teammate died suddenly while playing basketball Sunday (age 14.) He was born with a bad ticker as my father would have said. I read Ryan Shay was born with the enlarged heart and his doctors were monitoring him regularly and decided maybe the sport would help somehow, obviously a miscalculation somewhere.

From the coroner's report released Thursday, courtesy of MSNBC.com

"The Martin County Medical Examiner's Office told TheWrap that the autopsy, performed by chief medical examiner Roger Mittleman at 10:30 a.m. ET on Thursday, revealed that Jones died of ventricular fibrillation resulting from severe coronary atherosclerosis."

The same thing that killed Tim Russert of NBC News.

@Michele "1L" Keane wrote:i'm no expert, but I always believe that often those of us who think we are eating healthy and exercising neglect to visit our physicians and often succumb to a pre-disposition we thought we could literally run away from. Just because he was a vegetarian and ran a lot did not mean he didn't have high cholesterol or some other predisposition.

I just had lunch (and beers) with my dad who is in SF on vacation. And I'm just an (ignorant) messanger - medicine is not my skill.

However, one issue (semantics) is high cholesterol is not bad. It is your ratio of HDL to total that you need to be careful of (s/b less than 4 I think is what Doc Dad told me). Hospitals don't even test for LDL anymore, per him. The point is, misconception, often coming from the medical establishment can be dangerous.

And to add to Jack's comment, when you're getting your cholesterol levels, it's the level for that point in time. It's not like taking your body temperature. cholesterol levels fluctuate, so a doctor wanting to prescribe statins after 1 level check is looney.

By the way, HDL gobbles up the LDL as one of its main goals in life.

@Mike MacLellan wrote:What I will say is that it's easier to be "stupid" when you're vegan than when you're a meat-eater. Many vegetarians/vegans simply cut out a food group or groups and don't replace those nutrients. So, yes, it's easy to be "fit" and "unhealthy" as a vegetarian/vegan.

Well put Mike. One alarm bell that goes off in my mind, when thinking of Davy Jones as a vegetarian, is that vitamin K2 deficiency has been linked to calcification of the heart, and vitamin K2 (not K1) is only found in animal products like liver, dairy, and egg yolks.

I used to be a competitive runner and cyclist, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there is a lot of data in the medical literature linking serious marathon training and running to heart disease, and specifically to calcification of the arteries around the heart. I can't post the links here (I'm a brand new member), but googling "marathon runners cardiovascular disease calcification" gives you a bunch. Look at theheart.org for one.

I like Shuey and Bob's conversation better. You guys scare the crap out of me. No statins, yes statins. No meat, yes meat. No run, yes run, but no marathon training. For Pete's sakes we all have a one way ticket anyway. Personally, I've always believed in moderation in everything. So far I seem to be holding up.

@Schuey wrote:

@Bob wrote:Jimi Hendrix opened for The Monkees. How 'bout that?!

Correct again Mr. Bob! I bet Jimi was higher then a kite also!

This may be true but I refuse to believe it -- no I'm not a believer. Serious Jim Fixx situation here.

@Bob wrote:And Michael Nesmith's mother invented White Out. Good night, everyone!

We now return you to the previously scheduled dietary discussion already in progress.

Marcia Brady was Davy Jones' #1 Fan and the President of his fan club.

I'm only mildly embarrassed to admit that I listened to my Monkey's CD on the way in to work this morning. (I don't recall how I happen to have a Monkey's CD...I think someone gave it to me a long time ago) After all of the Davy Jones conversation over the last several days the pull was just too strong. So I gave in and sang along as if I was still 8 years old. Funny how I still remember all of the words...but can't remember how or why I have a Monkey's CD.

Is this thread about the Monkeys, or Davey Jones, or statins, or cholesterol, or eggs, or vegetarianism? I've never seen a thread go on so many tangents!