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Building A Better Bumblebee

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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  ounce on Wed May 07, 2014 2:16 pm

@Mark B wrote:
@ounce wrote:
@Mark B wrote:
@ounce wrote:
@Mark B wrote:
@ounce wrote:It's one of those things that you don't see an improvement because the muscles are so small, so you hope the sum total of the exercises does accomplish something.  I can say that I haven't had a sprained ankle since 2005, when I sprained it and got some PT for it.  I've been working on balance (most consistently with just lifting one foot and balancing) and I still do a few of the exercises during meetings, under the table, that I was doing last Fall.

I could imagine how working those muscles is more a matter of control than power. Still, that counts for a lot. The proper support from these secondary muscles can improve balance and reduce the risk of ankle sprains, but it may also help put your joints in the right position to get the greatest oomph out of your stronger muscles. Sort of like hitting the sweet spot. I'd be totally up for that.

Just be careful during those meetings, lest somebody think you're playing footsie down there. Wink

Well, but it's just not the secondary muscles of the lower leg, it's the adductors, abductors, core, glutes, the balance in the quads vs hamstrings, neck, etc.  I would guess a metaphor would be that a full orchestra sounds better than a couple of pieces and can play longer.

And that the orchestra always sounds 100 percent better if the oboe player ever finds itself in the same key as the rest of the ensemble. One small piece can make a big difference, (Warning: Metaphor switch-up!) like those lug nuts that keep the wheels from falling off...

Oh, I can come up with a million car-related metaphors like, a wheel lacking a 1 ounce wheel weight can make the whole car shutter.

And that's a pretty good way to describe it. Small issue has a big impact.


@Nick Morris wrote:
@Mark B wrote:
@Nick Morris wrote:
@ounce wrote:
@Nick Morris wrote:Hey Mark, I am glad to see that you brought the bumblebee analogy back.  I like it!!  I also think that you are going about this the right way, in making sure that old habits are broke and everything is right before going back to running.  You are seeking out and fixing the root of the issue instead of just patching things to keep going.  Before you know it you will be back to running and be better for it.  You'll be a brand new Mark Smile

But can we handle that???   Suspect  affraid


Good question!!

Well, remember, no matter how much you restore the suspension and tighten up all those rattly connections in the chassis, we're still dealing with something more like a '63 Falcon than a '63 Corvette Sting Ray.

So I think you're safe. Smile

I always like the Chevy Nova... which translates in Spanish to "It doesn't go"

As much as I love that story, I am sorry to say that it apparently isn't actually, you know, factual.

(Thanks to those pesky killjoys at Snopes.com.)  tongue

Sorry, Mark, but I was thinking more of a '63 Corvair.  Gosh, and what did Ralph Nader say about the Corvair???
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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  Mark B on Wed May 07, 2014 3:30 pm

@ounce wrote:
@Mark B wrote:
@ounce wrote:
@Mark B wrote:
@ounce wrote:
@Mark B wrote:
@ounce wrote:It's one of those things that you don't see an improvement because the muscles are so small, so you hope the sum total of the exercises does accomplish something.  I can say that I haven't had a sprained ankle since 2005, when I sprained it and got some PT for it.  I've been working on balance (most consistently with just lifting one foot and balancing) and I still do a few of the exercises during meetings, under the table, that I was doing last Fall.

I could imagine how working those muscles is more a matter of control than power. Still, that counts for a lot. The proper support from these secondary muscles can improve balance and reduce the risk of ankle sprains, but it may also help put your joints in the right position to get the greatest oomph out of your stronger muscles. Sort of like hitting the sweet spot. I'd be totally up for that.

Just be careful during those meetings, lest somebody think you're playing footsie down there. Wink

Well, but it's just not the secondary muscles of the lower leg, it's the adductors, abductors, core, glutes, the balance in the quads vs hamstrings, neck, etc.  I would guess a metaphor would be that a full orchestra sounds better than a couple of pieces and can play longer.

And that the orchestra always sounds 100 percent better if the oboe player ever finds itself in the same key as the rest of the ensemble. One small piece can make a big difference, (Warning: Metaphor switch-up!) like those lug nuts that keep the wheels from falling off...

Oh, I can come up with a million car-related metaphors like, a wheel lacking a 1 ounce wheel weight can make the whole car shutter.

And that's a pretty good way to describe it. Small issue has a big impact.


@Nick Morris wrote:
@Mark B wrote:
@Nick Morris wrote:
@ounce wrote:
@Nick Morris wrote:Hey Mark, I am glad to see that you brought the bumblebee analogy back.  I like it!!  I also think that you are going about this the right way, in making sure that old habits are broke and everything is right before going back to running.  You are seeking out and fixing the root of the issue instead of just patching things to keep going.  Before you know it you will be back to running and be better for it.  You'll be a brand new Mark Smile

But can we handle that???   Suspect  affraid


Good question!!

Well, remember, no matter how much you restore the suspension and tighten up all those rattly connections in the chassis, we're still dealing with something more like a '63 Falcon than a '63 Corvette Sting Ray.

So I think you're safe. Smile

I always like the Chevy Nova... which translates in Spanish to "It doesn't go"

As much as I love that story, I am sorry to say that it apparently isn't actually, you know, factual.

(Thanks to those pesky killjoys at Snopes.com.)  tongue

Sorry, Mark, but I was thinking more of a '63 Corvair.  Gosh, and what did Ralph Nader say about the Corvair???

 lol! 

Nice one! (The book was "Unsafe at any Speed")

I didn't realize they were around in 1963. Funny! And given the Corvair's problems with its suspension... appropriate! You win this round. Smile
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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  Mark B on Thu May 08, 2014 3:42 pm

Quick update:

I'm up to 100 reps on the ankle inversion/eversion exercises. It's a little monotonous, but even those itty bitty muscles don't start feeling like they're getting warmed up until I'm past 60. I'm holding at 100 for now (she'd suggested 20, after all) just to keep from completely overdoing it. I can now actually feel the posterior tibialis, which is a weird sensation.

I'm up to about 60 reps of the assorted leg lifts, with another 20 or so leg circles. I might increase those as time goes on, and add another session sometimes.

Luckily for me, the PT said she isn't hung up on numbers. She said the point is to exercise to fatigue. For some, I suspect that means doing fewer reps than suggested... but for folks like us? Heh. Well, you know.

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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  ounce on Thu May 08, 2014 6:29 pm

@Mark B wrote:Quick update:

I'm up to 100 reps on the ankle inversion/eversion exercises. It's a little monotonous, but even those itty bitty muscles don't start feeling like they're getting warmed up until I'm past 60. I'm holding at 100 for now (she'd suggested 20, after all) just to keep from completely overdoing it. I can now actually feel the posterior tibialis, which is a weird sensation.

I'm up to about 60 reps of the assorted leg lifts, with another 20 or so leg circles. I might increase those as time goes on, and add another session sometimes.

Luckily for me, the PT said she isn't hung up on numbers. She said the point is to exercise to fatigue. For some, I suspect that means doing fewer reps than suggested... but for folks like us? Heh. Well, you know.


If you can still execute the exercise, then you're not fatigued, so motor on until you can't (or run out of time).
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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  Mark B on Thu May 08, 2014 7:56 pm

@ounce wrote:
@Mark B wrote:Quick update:

I'm up to 100 reps on the ankle inversion/eversion exercises. It's a little monotonous, but even those itty bitty muscles don't start feeling like they're getting warmed up until I'm past 60. I'm holding at 100 for now (she'd suggested 20, after all) just to keep from completely overdoing it. I can now actually feel the posterior tibialis, which is a weird sensation.

I'm up to about 60 reps of the assorted leg lifts, with another 20 or so leg circles. I might increase those as time goes on, and add another session sometimes.

Luckily for me, the PT said she isn't hung up on numbers. She said the point is to exercise to fatigue. For some, I suspect that means doing fewer reps than suggested... but for folks like us? Heh. Well, you know.


If you can still execute the exercise, then you're not fatigued, so motor on until you can't (or run out of time).

You raise an interesting point, Ounce. I'll have to remember to ask the PT if she sees a difference between exercising to fatigue and exercising to failure. It seems that, if the goal is to keep the "master compensator" patient from using muscles he shouldn't, it might be unwise to let him keep going until he can't do any more - because he'd probably start "cheating" long before then.
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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  nkrichards on Fri May 09, 2014 9:26 am

@Mark B wrote:
@ounce wrote:
@Mark B wrote:Quick update:

I'm up to 100 reps on the ankle inversion/eversion exercises. It's a little monotonous, but even those itty bitty muscles don't start feeling like they're getting warmed up until I'm past 60. I'm holding at 100 for now (she'd suggested 20, after all) just to keep from completely overdoing it. I can now actually feel the posterior tibialis, which is a weird sensation.

I'm up to about 60 reps of the assorted leg lifts, with another 20 or so leg circles. I might increase those as time goes on, and add another session sometimes.

Luckily for me, the PT said she isn't hung up on numbers. She said the point is to exercise to fatigue. For some, I suspect that means doing fewer reps than suggested... but for folks like us? Heh. Well, you know.


If you can still execute the exercise, then you're not fatigued, so motor on until you can't (or run out of time).

You raise an interesting point, Ounce. I'll have to remember to ask the PT if she sees a difference between exercising to fatigue and exercising to failure. It seems that, if the goal is to keep the "master compensator" patient from using muscles he shouldn't, it might be unwise to let him keep going until he can't do any more - because he'd probably start "cheating" long before then.

I tend to agree that going to the point of failure may be a bit to long allowing you to slip back into bad habits.  I'm curious what the PT will say.

Thanks for sharing your exercises and keeping us up to date on your progress.  We can all learn right along with you.  Very Happy
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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  Mark B on Fri May 09, 2014 10:48 am

@nkrichards wrote:
@Mark B wrote:
@ounce wrote:
@Mark B wrote:Quick update:

I'm up to 100 reps on the ankle inversion/eversion exercises. It's a little monotonous, but even those itty bitty muscles don't start feeling like they're getting warmed up until I'm past 60. I'm holding at 100 for now (she'd suggested 20, after all) just to keep from completely overdoing it. I can now actually feel the posterior tibialis, which is a weird sensation.

I'm up to about 60 reps of the assorted leg lifts, with another 20 or so leg circles. I might increase those as time goes on, and add another session sometimes.

Luckily for me, the PT said she isn't hung up on numbers. She said the point is to exercise to fatigue. For some, I suspect that means doing fewer reps than suggested... but for folks like us? Heh. Well, you know.


If you can still execute the exercise, then you're not fatigued, so motor on until you can't (or run out of time).

You raise an interesting point, Ounce. I'll have to remember to ask the PT if she sees a difference between exercising to fatigue and exercising to failure. It seems that, if the goal is to keep the "master compensator" patient from using muscles he shouldn't, it might be unwise to let him keep going until he can't do any more - because he'd probably start "cheating" long before then.

I tend to agree that going to the point of failure may be a bit to long allowing you to slip back into bad habits.  I'm curious what the PT will say.

Thanks for sharing your exercises and keeping us up to date on your progress.  We can all learn right along with you.  Very Happy

Hey, Nancy! You inspired me to send my PT an email rather than wait until our next visit.

Here's what I asked: "I have an odd question for you. ... When you say exercise to the point of fatigue, is that different from the "point of failure" approach that some people use when lifting weights? I think they're different (it'd be far more likely to recruit other muscles if it's to failure), but I just want to be sure. Stop when I feel the burn, or when I can't do any more?"

Here's what she said: "Not an odd question at all. I think it would be best for you to stop at the "burn" rather than failure as compensatory strategies to get to 'failure' is not a good idea."

That's what I'd suspected, but it's good to know.
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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  ounce on Fri May 09, 2014 1:51 pm

@Mark B wrote:
@nkrichards wrote:
@Mark B wrote:
@ounce wrote:
@Mark B wrote:Quick update:

I'm up to 100 reps on the ankle inversion/eversion exercises. It's a little monotonous, but even those itty bitty muscles don't start feeling like they're getting warmed up until I'm past 60. I'm holding at 100 for now (she'd suggested 20, after all) just to keep from completely overdoing it. I can now actually feel the posterior tibialis, which is a weird sensation.

I'm up to about 60 reps of the assorted leg lifts, with another 20 or so leg circles. I might increase those as time goes on, and add another session sometimes.

Luckily for me, the PT said she isn't hung up on numbers. She said the point is to exercise to fatigue. For some, I suspect that means doing fewer reps than suggested... but for folks like us? Heh. Well, you know.


If you can still execute the exercise, then you're not fatigued, so motor on until you can't (or run out of time).

You raise an interesting point, Ounce. I'll have to remember to ask the PT if she sees a difference between exercising to fatigue and exercising to failure. It seems that, if the goal is to keep the "master compensator" patient from using muscles he shouldn't, it might be unwise to let him keep going until he can't do any more - because he'd probably start "cheating" long before then.

I tend to agree that going to the point of failure may be a bit to long allowing you to slip back into bad habits.  I'm curious what the PT will say.

Thanks for sharing your exercises and keeping us up to date on your progress.  We can all learn right along with you.  Very Happy

Hey, Nancy! You inspired me to send my PT an email rather than wait until our next visit.

Here's what I asked: "I have an odd question for you. ... When you say exercise to the point of fatigue, is that different from the "point of failure" approach that some people use when lifting weights? I think they're different (it'd be far more likely to recruit other muscles if it's to failure), but I just want to be sure. Stop when I feel the burn, or when I can't do any more?"

Here's what she said: "Not an odd question at all. I think it would be best for you to stop at the "burn" rather than failure as compensatory strategies to get to 'failure' is not a good idea."

That's what I'd suspected, but it's good to know.

So shall it be written.  So shall it be done.
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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  dot520 on Sat May 10, 2014 10:29 am

What the ???  I will be going back and reading this tomorrow morning with my breakfast and get to the bottom of your current malaise.  I must admit to enjoying the photos that you posted a page back or so of the foot/leg anatomy.  Good stuff.
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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  Mark B on Sat May 10, 2014 1:20 pm

@dot520 wrote:What the ???  I will be going back and reading this tomorrow morning with my breakfast and get to the bottom of your current malaise.  I must admit to enjoying the photos that you posted a page back or so of the foot/leg anatomy.  Good stuff.

Can't leave me alone for a minute, can you, Dot? Wink

In a nutshell, I was pushing my luck - and knew it - as I was trying to get ready for a 50K in June, and it seems that I got blind-sided by an unexpected problem. Now, unexpected problems always come up, but unexpected problems are less likely to take you out when you give yourself a greater margin for error. Seems obvious, doesn't it? But I apparently need to learn the hard way.
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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  ounce on Sat May 10, 2014 3:54 pm

@Mark B wrote:
@dot520 wrote:What the ???  I will be going back and reading this tomorrow morning with my breakfast and get to the bottom of your current malaise.  I must admit to enjoying the photos that you posted a page back or so of the foot/leg anatomy.  Good stuff.

Can't leave me alone for a minute, can you, Dot? Wink

In a nutshell, I was pushing my luck - and knew it - as I was trying to get ready for a 50K in June, and it seems that I got blind-sided by an unexpected problem. Now, unexpected problems always come up, but unexpected problems are less likely to take you out when you give yourself a greater margin for error. Seems obvious, doesn't it? But I apparently need to learn the hard way.
It's such a good thing that you're not old, yet.
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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  Mark B on Sat May 10, 2014 4:36 pm

@ounce wrote:
@Mark B wrote:
@dot520 wrote:What the ???  I will be going back and reading this tomorrow morning with my breakfast and get to the bottom of your current malaise.  I must admit to enjoying the photos that you posted a page back or so of the foot/leg anatomy.  Good stuff.

Can't leave me alone for a minute, can you, Dot? Wink

In a nutshell, I was pushing my luck - and knew it - as I was trying to get ready for a 50K in June, and it seems that I got blind-sided by an unexpected problem. Now, unexpected problems always come up, but unexpected problems are less likely to take you out when you give yourself a greater margin for error. Seems obvious, doesn't it? But I apparently need to learn the hard way.
It's such a good thing that you're not old, yet.

Excellent point. Because getting old is what happens when you stop growing and learning. geek

***

Speaking of learning, I decided that I'd take today as a recovery day from my PT work.

I've gotten up to 100 reps with the theraband, everting and inverting both ankles (that's 400 reps total), 30 reps of the modified clamshell, 30 reps of side  leg lifts, 20-30 reps of leg circles and 30 reps of bridges (holding for 5 seconds at a time). I've only really started doing this, but I am starting to feel a little difference.

My right foot still bugs me when I push off while walking with any level of vigor, so I'm looking forward to getting that MRI.
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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  dot520 on Sun May 11, 2014 8:20 am

Okay....got caught up with just one cup of green tea..  I must tell you that every time I read of someone working on a specific area of muscles and then hear of others chiming in with this muscle group and that muscle group...I almost hyperventilate.  I suppose we, as runners, should really be spending more time per week on a well rounded program.  Hit the legs, hit the core, balance, upper body, back etc.  I'm not talking about any weight lifting per se, but more resistance type training so we don't fall apart.  I'm back to rowing again with a vengeance, but now I see I must pick up my pilates, resistance bands etc.  Lots to do to be able to run injury free for life.

We always wait until something breaks to do what we should have been doing all along.  sigh.
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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  Mark B on Sun May 11, 2014 1:47 pm

@dot520 wrote:Okay....got caught up with just one cup of green tea..  I must tell you that every time I read of someone working on a specific area of muscles and then hear of others chiming in with this muscle group and that muscle group...I almost hyperventilate.  I suppose we, as runners, should really be spending more time per week on a well rounded program.  Hit the legs, hit the core, balance, upper body, back etc.  I'm not talking about any weight lifting per se, but more resistance type training so we don't fall apart.  I'm back to rowing again with a vengeance, but now I see I must pick up my pilates, resistance bands etc.  Lots to do to be able to run injury free for life.

We always wait until something breaks to do what we should have been doing all along.  sigh.

Well, I suppose we could look at it that way, but there's another way: Isn't it amazing how much abuse our bodies can take before they break? Very Happy

I borrowed (okay, twisted beyond all recognition) that notion from a PT I had a few years ago. (Isn't it troubling that I have a collection of PT quotes?) She mentioned to me that the human body is designed to compensate for a wide range of dysfunction before things start to fail.

That's a good thing as a survival matter. We're designed to keep going even if we're not at top form. The trouble is, of course, is that it also means we can blithely abuse ourselves without even realizing it until -- kapwang! -- the body passes the limit and breaks down.

Anyway, you're right. We runners really should pursue a well-rounded program. I knew better, but apparently believed that running on trails and running barefoot sometimes provided enough varied stimulus to keep things balanced out. It may have helped, but it apparently wasn't enough.

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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  Mark B on Sun May 11, 2014 9:57 pm

Back to the PT work today (man, why does PT feel so tedious?), supplemented by an easy 2-mile walk with Alita. She's signed up for the Portland to Coast walk held in conjunction with the Hood to Coast run as motivation to get going post-surgery.

I wore my sandals (one of the factors in my break-down, I suspect) and tried to not push it. I was a little creaky at first, but it got a little better and stayed that way. The foot didn't bother me, either, which was a good thing.
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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Mon May 12, 2014 8:49 am

That's cool that Alita is doing the walk - I'm on a HTC team (as of right now)
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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  Mark B on Mon May 12, 2014 9:46 am

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:That's cool that Alita is doing the walk - I'm on a HTC team (as of right now)

Really? That's very cool! Maybe we'll finally get a chance to meet in person. Smile
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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Mon May 12, 2014 12:05 pm

@Mark B wrote:
Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:That's cool that Alita is doing the walk - I'm on a HTC team (as of right now)

Really? That's very cool! Maybe we'll finally get a chance to meet in person. Smile

Maybe!
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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  Mark B on Mon May 12, 2014 12:37 pm

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:
@Mark B wrote:
Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:That's cool that Alita is doing the walk - I'm on a HTC team (as of right now)

Really? That's very cool! Maybe we'll finally get a chance to meet in person. Smile

Maybe!

That'd be fun. At least by that point, I should be ambulatory.  Approval 

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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  Mark B on Mon May 12, 2014 3:41 pm

Okay, so it's Monday, beautiful, and my activity is limited to PT.

To say that had me bummed is an understatement. Add to that the fact that I'm still in the "no running" mode and I'd pretty much lost hope of being able to get ready in time for the Oregon Coast 50K in October, which meant my year was pretty much shot, and I was downright gloomy.

Until, oddly, this popped up on Facebook.

Registration opens on UltraSignup Wednesday at 8am for the brand new Oregon Coast 50k/30k(race date Oct 18)! Stay tuned for the new website with all the details. But for now here's a few pictures and a few key details...

50k: starts at Waldport and runs 6 miles right on the beach to Yachats and then runs trails that run right next to waves crashing into the rocks just a few feet away sending seawater shooting up into the sky, then the trail climbs up on fun single track through the forest and climbs high up to the bluffs of Cape Perpetua with multiple views down to the coast and on a clear day you can see all the way to Cape Blanco 130 miles away! The route does a big loop at Cape Perpetua and then heads back to Yachats and finishes on the oceanfront lawn at the Adobe Resort. The 50k has few decent climbs and runs on 6 miles of sandy beach but it's not crazy hard with only 3500-4000ft of elevation gain.

The 30k will start and finish in Yachats at The Adobe Resort and will run a very similar course as the 50k but will not do the 6 miles on the beach and will do a shorter loop in Cape Perpetua but will still be extremely scenic and will only be moderately difficult with just 2500-3000ft of elevation gain.

oh and we are working with the Adobe Resort to provide folks with a discount on rooms there and we are going to probably have fun stuff setup for both the night before and the night after, including music from The Pine Hearts, and lots of good food and local beer.


My initial reaction was a sigh. Sure. Taunt me. Dangle it in front of me.

My second reaction came from out of nowhere: Oh, hell no. There is no way I am NOT doing this. I am signing up. I'm training. I'm doing it.

After all, what am I doing all this PT for, anyway? So I can go play in places like this:

















Amazing, isn't it? Let's just say it's going to give me some major motivation to get this rehab done right.

I can make this work. I will make this work. Giddyup.
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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  Jim Lentz on Mon May 12, 2014 4:06 pm

Wow! 30K or 50K?
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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  Mark B on Mon May 12, 2014 4:09 pm

@Jim Lentz wrote:Wow! 30K or 50K?

The 50K is the plan.
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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  ounce on Mon May 12, 2014 4:50 pm

It eases my soul that there is only 3,500-4,000 feet of elevation gain.  Let's see, I think on my typical run to Memorial Park there is a total elevation difference of 60 feet?  So, 3,500-4,000 is, uh, a piece of cake!
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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  Mark B on Mon May 12, 2014 5:03 pm

@ounce wrote:It eases my soul that there is only 3,500-4,000 feet of elevation gain.  Let's see, I think on my typical run to Memorial Park there is a total elevation difference of 60 feet?  So, 3,500-4,000 is, uh, a piece of cake!

But look at the view you get as a reward! I've been on that spot on Cape Perpetua before (it's part of the U.S. Forest Service's Cape Perpetua Scenic Area), and it really is one of the best spots on the Oregon Coast.

Now, being that the race is in October, it's entirely possible that I'd be running into the teeth of a storm... so that could add an interesting extra dimension.
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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

Post  dot520 on Mon May 12, 2014 8:37 pm

"Now, being that the race is in October, it's entirely possible that I'd be running into the teeth of a storm... so that could add an interesting extra dimension"

So it's not well enough that you are planning on the 50k after all, but you relish the thought of an additional challenge?  Ha!  You're so good!
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Re: Building A Better Bumblebee

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