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Fracking the system

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Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:27 pm

The issue is availability of time, firstly, and then just running on that many days as a result.  My schedule is such that I pretty much don't have but 2 or 3 free weekends between now and October.

So from Sunday night to Friday morning is my running time.  And from mid-February to the end if July, I'll be doing CrossFit m-t-w.  I can probably run, like Michele suggested, a few miles ahead of a CrossFit class.  My preference would be Tuesdays, but it depends on the WOD, that day.

Running Sunday evening, Tuesday morning, Thursday and Friday morning seems to be the max, for now.
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Re: Fracking the system

Post  Mark B on Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:29 pm

Timing has always been the trickiest part of my training. Something before CrossFit could help, even if it's only a couple of miles. Or walking at lunch during work? I can squeeze out a couple of miles a couple times per week. It aids in recovery, burbs some calories and provides a mild aerobic stimulus.
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Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:32 am

This morning, I needed to get out and run some.  I had some things on my mind and I decided to treat my body to a hard run.  I'm just about ready to sign up for the ConocoPhillips Rodeo Run on March 1, which is a 10K and a 5K race.  It is also the lead off event for the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo Parade through downtown.  The parade is full with cowboys and cowgirls whom have ridden to Houston on some 13 different trail rides from as close as 50 miles to as far away as the Texas-Mexico border in far south Texas.
http://www.hlsr.com/Events/TrailRides.aspx

The trail riders converge at Memorial Park about 5 miles from downtown, where I run, on the Friday before the parade.  Rodeo time is a great time in Houston.  As a kid, I remember a school holiday for "Fat Stock Show Day".  We also got San Jacinto Day as a holiday on April 21, where the Texas Army defeated Santa Ana in a field 20 miles east of Houston about 6 weeks after the Alamo in 1836.  Yes, there's a test later.

This was one of those 'jam it down your throat' kind of runs.  I was going to run an hour and see what the time and effect was.  Part of the justification was to see what I might could do for the Rodeo Run 10K.  It was 45 degrees with a mist and a coolish 5-10 mph wind.  I wore some gloves, my do-rag, and a long sleeve tech shirt.

5.85 miles, 1:00:01, 157 avg bpm, 167 max HR during the last mile, 1st half pace 10:14, 2nd half pace 10:15, although I did see 10:17 during the 2nd half.

  1. 10:21,
  2. 10:08,
  3. 10:12,
  4. 10:23,
  5. 10:20,
  6. 10:04 pace


Forgot to write down the HR's.

I didn't have any pain during the run, nor any groin nor any leg muscle protestation, but walking around the office, my right ankle is a little worn out.  I did not get back to my starting point, but was about 100 feet away.  I think my PR in the 10K is 1:12:41 from 2007.

I was pleased that for as hard as I was trying to run, the body was fine with it.  I might just try doing this once a week up to the Rodeo Run and see what happens.  A sub-1 hour pace is 9:40.  Doubt I can string 6 sub-9:40's together in the daylight.
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Re: Fracking the system

Post  Mark B on Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:25 am

Nice run! They really ought to combine the 10K with the running of the steers. Now *that* would get your HR up. Very Happy

Since you're still recovering from your marathon, don't push the speed too much. Once a week is all you'd want to do. You can also try running even faster for shorter distances, with cool-down periods in between (aka interval training), which might actually help you more in picking up speed for a 5K or 10K than just going out and running at a faster tempo. Time to goose that VO Max!
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Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:47 pm

@Mark B wrote:Nice run! They really ought to combine the 10K with the running of the steers. Now *that* would get your HR up. Very Happy

Since you're still recovering from your marathon, don't push the speed too much. Once a week is all you'd want to do. You can also try running even faster for shorter distances, with cool-down periods in between (aka interval training), which might actually help you more in picking up speed for a 5K or 10K than just going out and running at a faster tempo. Time to goose that VO Max!

And I'm sure you'd be first on the list of people not to try it!  Wink 

Yeah, the interval training could be fun and if nothing else, it would help my breathing when the distance starts to play funny things with the head.

Separately, the ankle has settle down.  I guess I'll find out if it's going to swell a little or not.

Coincendentally, in the days after last Friday's 9 mile run, there was not any swelling, which is the first time in a month or so.  Maybe my ankles and lower legs are adapting to the extra pounding.
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Re: Fracking the system

Post  Mark B on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:10 pm

@ounce wrote:And I'm sure you'd be first on the list of people not to try it!  Wink 

Yeah, the interval training could be fun and if nothing else, it would help my breathing when the distance starts to play funny things with the head.

Separately, the ankle has settle down.  I guess I'll find out if it's going to swell a little or not.

Coincendentally, in the days after last Friday's 9 mile run, there was not any swelling, which is the first time in a month or so.  Maybe my ankles and lower legs are adapting to the extra pounding.

Hey, there, partner. You happen to be addressing a former Tehama County Cattlemen's Association Media Newsman of the Year. Chronicler and photographer of the world's largest two-day rodeo, the Red Bluff Round-Up. Resident expert on range-ready breeding bulls thanks to all my years at the Red Bluff Bull and Gelding Sale. Hell, I even have boots!

Anyway, that probably means I've got enough sense to not want to get stampeded... Wink

Good news on the ankle. And yeah, mixing in a bit of higher intensity IS a good idea. Even Maffetone recommends it. He just says the bulk of the gains you can get are through aerobic training.
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Re: Fracking the system

Post  mul21 on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:34 pm

Don't be alarmed at some strange soreness in the days or so after a run like that. There is without question some additional stress put on ligaments and tendons when running at a much faster speed than an easy run would be. I think 62 minutes would be a great goal for the upcoming 10K by the way. It's pretty amazing how quickly the body adapts to the faster paces when you hit them on a semi regular basis.
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Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:47 pm

@mul21 wrote:Don't be alarmed at some strange soreness in the days or so after a run like that.  There is without question some additional stress put on ligaments and tendons when running at a much faster speed than an easy run would be.  I think 62 minutes would be a great goal for the upcoming 10K by the way.  It's pretty amazing how quickly the body adapts to the faster paces when you hit them on a semi regular basis.

I agree that 62 minutes would be a real, nice goal...as long as the ambient temperature isn't the same or higher than the goal.
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Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:42 am

I can report no swelling of the ankles, nor lower legs, during the overnight period as a result of the 1 hour run yesterday.

I don't know how much my yoga class contributed, but I was the only one there last night at the CrossFit box.  I learned some of the little tweaks that can help me open up my hips more on a Warrior 1 stance.  The quads weren't thrilled, but who needs quads anyway?
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Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:09 pm

Was going to run, this morning, but I got to sleep too late and when the alarm went off, it just wasn't in the cards.  We also had some unforecasted sleet, this morning.  The freezing precip evidently was late arriving somewhere to the east, because the precip was travelling through Houston at 50 mph.
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Re: Fracking the system

Post  Lobo on Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:31 pm

@ounce wrote:Was going to run, this morning, but I got to sleep too late and when the alarm went off, it just wasn't in the cards.  We also had some unforecasted sleet, this morning.  The freezing precip evidently was late arriving somewhere to the east, because the precip was travelling through Houston at 50 mph.

Good morning to sleep in.  On the idea of adding another day of running -- I think adding a day of short and easy is a good idea. We runners tend to discount other forms of exercise like crossfit, and we skimp on rest days. Try it if it doesn't work give it up.

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Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:15 pm

@Lobo wrote:
@ounce wrote:Was going to run, this morning, but I got to sleep too late and when the alarm went off, it just wasn't in the cards.  We also had some unforecasted sleet, this morning.  The freezing precip evidently was late arriving somewhere to the east, because the precip was travelling through Houston at 50 mph.

Good morning to sleep in.  On the idea of adding another day of running -- I think adding a day of short and easy is a good idea. We runners tend to discount other forms of exercise like crossfit, and we skimp on rest days. Try it if it doesn't work give it up.

Thanks for stopping by, Dave!

My running plan was based on Hal's 3 day for Masters runners plan, with a lot of changes.  Occasionally, I would plant a 4th day, if I was going to be running on the weekend, which isn't a usual thing at all.

I'll try the extra day and see how it goes.  Thanks again.
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Re: Fracking the system

Post  nkrichards on Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:23 pm

Looking forward to following the new blog.

I know that most here favor more miles and more days running but I am in a similar situation to you.  I struggle to find the time to run even 3 days a week and want to do other things...swim, bike, core & strength work on the other days.  I modified Hals Novice 3 program for my first marathon and have continued to use it as a starting point for my other marathons. 

It took me three tries but I qualified for Boston this year on 3 days of running per week. 
Monday is speedwork of some sort.  Plus core/strength.
Tuesday is a swim day.  I also bike on either Tues or Thurs.
Wednesday is a Tempo run.  Plus core/strength.
Thursday is a swim day.  Bike if I wasn't able to on Tues.
Friday is long run day.  Plus core/strength.
Saturday is scheduled for a longer bike ride or a make up day if I missed a run during the week.
Sunday is a rest day.

I may be able to run faster/longer on more mileage or more days per week but I'm pretty happy with what I'm able to accomplish with the above schedule...and still have a life.  Very Happy 

Hopefully I'll find the time to get back to my training and also time to follow along here.

Good luck.
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Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:03 am

@nkrichards wrote:Looking forward to following the new blog.

I know that most here favor more miles and more days running but I am in a similar situation to you.  I struggle to find the time to run even 3 days a week and want to do other things...swim, bike, core & strength work on the other days.  I modified Hals Novice 3 program for my first marathon and have continued to use it as a starting point for my other marathons. 

It took me three tries but I qualified for Boston this year on 3 days of running per week. 
Monday is speedwork of some sort.  Plus core/strength.
Tuesday is a swim day.  I also bike on either Tues or Thurs.
Wednesday is a Tempo run.  Plus core/strength.
Thursday is a swim day.  Bike if I wasn't able to on Tues.
Friday is long run day.  Plus core/strength.
Saturday is scheduled for a longer bike ride or a make up day if I missed a run during the week.
Sunday is a rest day.

I may be able to run faster/longer on more mileage or more days per week but I'm pretty happy with what I'm able to accomplish with the above schedule...and still have a life.  Very Happy 

Hopefully I'll find the time to get back to my training and also time to follow along here.

Good luck.

Thank you for your thoughts and training schedule, Nancy.  Hope everything on the homefront is settling back into a routine for you.

I think persistency and consistency helps us out, too.  All we can do is all we can do.  And rest plays a huge role, as well.  Thanks for stopping by.

-30-

This morning, I was going to run what I did not run yesterday because I must've slapped the alarm clock off and slept 2 hours longer.  It was a blustery morning with a temperature of 34 degrees with a sustained 10 mph wind with gusts that sent ripples through the standing water from yesterday.  It created a wind chill of 26, and thus the 3 layer shirt setup and tights.  It might've seemed like I overdressed a bit, until I came back and had a head wind.  THEN, I wasn't overdressed.

I had time to run 8 or 9 miles, but with the extra clothing, it knocked it down to 8 because it takes me longer to get those damn tights on.  This was to be an almost easy run.  It'd been a week and I wasn't going to do any screamin' Chicken Little tempo/interval/'rocket' run.  A 70% run, if you will.

8.08 miles, 1:34:57, 11:44 pace, 141 hr avg, 157 max HR during the last mile, 1st half pace 11:50 and 2nd half pace 11:38.


  1. 12:02, 127 bpm
  2. 11:31, 139 bpm
  3. 11:46, 141 bpm
  4. 12:03, 146 bpm
  5. 11:48, 141 bpm
  6. 11:46, 140 bpm
  7. 11:36, 144 bpm
  8. 11:25, 147 bpm


About mile 6, the quads were starting to whine a bit.  Last week, it started sooner, but I was going harder.  So, I guess I'm not completely recovered from the January 19 marathon.  26 days, is the average healing time rule of thumb.  I'm at day 23.  This wasn't a labored run, however, I felt fine.  No pains, other than the whining.

I'm looking back to last year to see if I can find an equivalent run with a cool temperature.  The only thing I can find is the 8 mile run from April 17 and a 47 degree morning.  It's re-produced below.

April 17, 2013-------------------
A 47 degree starting temperature at 4:45 a.m. with no wind. Eight miles is the target. I start out and it seems I'm not getting into a good groove, as if I have a small anchor that I'm dragging. When I get to Memorial at about mile 3, I'm doing a 12:33 pace, but it seems that I'm finding a groove. Running on the trail with people passing me, I step it up a bit and by the halfway point, I'm at 12:23 pace. Crap, and I'm going to have to hold that pace for the trip back.

Something happens and I'm running faster. I don't know why, but my average pace is dropping. Guess I got the trash out of my legs. So, the last mile, I put the hammer down where I was hoping for a sub-12 minute mile. That was a good run and possibly a recipe for handling future runs.

8 mile run, 1:37:34, 12:08 avg pace, 145 avg HR, 160 max HR during mile 8, 12:23 first half average and 11:53 2nd half pace.


  1. 12:20, 138 bpm
  2. 12:46, 139 bpm
  3. 12:23, 144 bpm
  4. 12:01, 149 bpm
  5. 12:05, 144 bpm
  6. 12:06, 147 bpm
  7. 12:01, 147 bpm
  8. 11:26, 150 bpm

--------------------------------------------
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Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:08 pm

Went out for another 8 mile run, this morning.  I wanted to up the pace a bit to see how I could maintain it and the HR effort.  The weather had clear skies (we got the rain on Tuesday that became Atlanta's snowstorm yesterday) and 32 degrees with calm winds.  Heck, today's Wind Gust mph through 3:30 this morning was even zero.  So, no measurable wind from midnight to 3:30.  This will also be the last 30's morning for a while because afternoon temperatures today through next Tuesday starts at 63, today, and rises to the mid-70's from Friday to Tuesday.

This will also probably mean today will be the last day to wear tights through at least November and probably next January.

8.08 miles, 1:32:58, 11:30 average pace, 150 avg bpm, 179 max HR during mile 8, 11:42 1st half pace and 11:18 2nd half pace.  Indeed, the pace for the first 7 miles was 11:42.


  1. 11:47, 140 bpm
  2. 11:33, 146 bpm
  3. 11:44, 147 bpm
  4. 11:46, 151 bpm
  5. 11:27, 150 bpm
  6. 11:48, 152 bpm
  7. 11:47, 152 bpm
  8. 10:22, 161 bpm


You would be correct, if you thought "Freebird" was on for the last mile.  Further, the last quarter mile, I really opened it up and was at 178 bpm.  Couldn't hit 180.  The body parts worked and worked well.

If you compare the times from Tuesday's 8 mile to today's through 7 miles:
Tuesday's time from 0-7 miles:  1:23:32
Today's time from 0-7 miles:  1:22:36.
A difference of 56 seconds or 8 seconds per mile faster.

If everything plays out, I'll run a 9 mile tomorrow at a 65% or less than 70% bpm pace.  If not, well, CrossFit starts on Monday.  Thanks for stopping by.
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Re: Fracking the system

Post  mul21 on Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:59 pm

So, compared to last year, you just had one run that was 24 seconds per mile faster with a 4 bpm lower HR and another that was 38 seconds per mile faster with only a 5 bpm uptick in HR. I'd say you're doing something right!
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Re: Fracking the system

Post  Mark B on Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:00 pm

@mul21 wrote:So, compared to last year, you just had one run that was 24 seconds per mile faster with a 4 bpm lower HR and another that was 38 seconds per mile faster with only a 5 bpm uptick in HR.  I'd say you're doing something right!

+1

Nice work, Ounce. Keep it up!
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Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:22 pm

@mul21 wrote:So, compared to last year, you just had one run that was 24 seconds per mile faster with a 4 bpm lower HR and another that was 38 seconds per mile faster with only a 5 bpm uptick in HR.  I'd say you're doing something right!

@Mark B wrote:
@mul21 wrote:So, compared to last year, you just had one run that was 24 seconds per mile faster with a 4 bpm lower HR and another that was 38 seconds per mile faster with only a 5 bpm uptick in HR.  I'd say you're doing something right!

+1

Nice work, Ounce. Keep it up!

Thanks, but keep in mind that I weighed 210, at that time, and I now weigh 185.  I might could lose another 5-10 pounds at the most, so any speed increase now will be due to technique and just running faster.

And with the advent of CrossFit on Monday, holding my weight steady due to muscle mass increase will be a victory in and of itself.
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Re: Fracking the system

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:30 pm

You seem to have recovered quite well, Doug. Excellent work!
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Re: Fracking the system

Post  Dave P on Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:07 am

"...technique and just running faster"

What we all strive for.
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Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:50 pm

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:You seem to have recovered quite well, Doug. Excellent work!
Thanks, Michele.  I'd like to skip 'just sub-12' runs and get lower.
@Dave P wrote:"...technique and just running faster"

What we all strive for.

Jeez, Dave, I was hoping for at least two more 'tricks-up-my-sleeve' discoveries to knock chunks off my time before I measure improvement in seconds and not minutes.  Well, I'll just have to keep plugging away.  And thanks for stopping by!
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Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:27 pm

This morning was my re-start of CrossFit at 5 a.m.  I'll be doing the 3x a week class until the end of July or mid-August.  Last year, I did the M-T-W frequency and run Th-F, because there is no Thursday 5 a.m. class and I didn't like the Friday instructor.  This year, I like the instructors on M, T, W and F.  Thursday is still no 5 a.m. class.  Tuesdays is now the "MetCon" only class (metabolic conditioning), instead of Wednesdays.  Those are purely do X, Y, and Z in Q minutes as many times as possible.  They're tiring, but pretty interesting.  I'll have to see what strength routine is being done on the strength days in order to decide which days I will attend.

Mondays are Power Snatch combined into an Overhead Squat.  I purposely used a light weight in order to get the technique down correctly.  For me, technique is everything.

However, prior to the 5 a.m. class, I did a 40 minute run.  And it was pretty much a hard run.  I wrote down the figures, but I guess I didn't bring them with me.  I'll post them later.  I ended up running maybe 38 minutes and change because I ran out 20 minutes at a 10:22 pace, but ran back at a 9:58 pace for an overall pace of 10:10.  It ended up about 3.8 miles.  I knew where the 1 mile back to the start point was, so "Freebird" was cued up and I hit the lap button with the idea of doing a sub-10 mile.  That mile was at 9:36.

I really didn't have any pain, even in my quads.  The whole run was pretty durn sweet, even if I do say so myself.  I knew what the CrossFit workout was before the run, so I didn't think I'd suffer greatly for doing the run.  And so far today, I haven't.  My shoulders and deltoid muscles are feeling it, but not my legs.

A 9:36.  My one mile PR (not in a race, but still timed by somebody else) is 9:11 from 2005.  Not sure if I'll do 62 minutes at the 10K on March 1, but a PR should be in the cards.  Thanks for dropping by.
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Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:42 pm

Found the paper.

3.8 miles, 38:39, 10:10 avg pace, 157 average HR, 178 max HR, 10:20 1st half pace, 10 flat 2nd half pace.

  1. 10:36, 148 bpm
  2. 10:17, 153 bpm
  3. 10:12 pace, 162 bpm (0.8 miles)
  4. 9:34, 170 bpm
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Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:55 am

So, due to some issues, I haven't been able to exercise since Monday.  This morning, I was able to run the 9 mile loop.  And I wanted to run it as a LSD at a HR of around 135 bpm to see what pace I could do.  I was expecting to pace in the 13's.

It was 68 degrees with a dewpoint of 66 with a south wind of 5-10.  Seems we went straight from lows in the 30's to lows in the 60's in the past week.

1:52:40, 8.84 miles, 12:44 pace, 136 avg bpm, 149 max bpm during miles 4 and 7, 1st half pace 12:39 and 2nd half pace 12:44.


  1. 12:53, 128 bpm
  2. 12:26, 136 bpm
  3. 12:38, 136 bpm
  4. 12:37, 138 bpm
  5. 12:43, 138 bpm
  6. 12:44, 138 bpm
  7. 12:57, 136 bpm
  8. 12:48, 138 bpm
  9. 12:53 pace, 137 bpm


I'm pretty sure this is the fastest sub-13, sub-70% aerobic run that I've ever done.  But I'll check the 35, 5, and 2 blog.  It felt good.  I wasn't hurried.  No pain.  Leaning a bit forward and striking mid-foot.   Approval

Here's a comparison from July 12, 2013 for the same distance.  My weight was 192 then and 188 now.  July 12 was a Friday, so I should have been rested enough (CrossFit was M-T-W) that these two runs are pretty comparable:

It was 71 degrees, this morning, with a dewpoint of the same and no wind.

8.79 miles, 1:58:41, 13:30 pace, 138 avg HR, 154 max HR during the last mile, 1st half pace 13:35, 2nd half pace 13:25.


  1. 13.34, 133 bpm
  2. 13:30, 133 bpm
  3. 13:36, 134 bpm
  4. 13:41, 137 bpm
  5. 13:32, 138 bpm
  6. 13:32, 137 bpm
  7. 13:30, 141 bpm
  8. 13:17, 145 bpm
  9. 13:16 pace, 148 bpm
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Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

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Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:23 am

I was a little late getting to bed, last night, so I just did CrossFit, this morning.  I decided that I'll do CrossFit on Mondays and Fridays for sure.  Now I just need to decide on either Tuesday or Wednesday.

We did this strength and conditioning plan.


Strength: Back Squat
7 x 3 @ 75-80%.  I used 105 pounds, because I wanted to get the technique down on a lighter weight.
Conditioning: For Time
Dumb Bell Hang Cleans: 10-8-6-4-2  (Dumb bells at your side, then 'clean' them up to your collarbone, repeat)
Dumb Bell Lunges (DB’s in rack position): 20-16-12-8-4  ('rack' position is the dumb bells against your collarbone while you're doing the lunges.)
100m DB Carry after each round  (walk with the dumb bells for 100 meters in any position comfortable)
Cool Down:
LAX Ball Hip Mobility  LaCrosse ball work.

I have a concern that my left knee might be a little weak on the lateral side of the kneecap.  It didn't feel like it was going to buckle, but it wasn't unnoticeable.
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Re: Fracking the system

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