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Fracking the system

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Post  ounce Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:26 am

The end of the 3rd week of converting to a 174 cadence is here.  Fridays have been the slowest run of the week and I might get 1 split greater than 170.  But this has been a different week.  The great majority of the splits have been 170 or greater and the times have all dropped in the 6% range from week 2.

Today fell into place like the rest of this week.  Even though my quads felt tired, they still performed.  I knew I wasn't 100%, but there was enough repetition already ingrained in my legs and head, evidently, that I was still able to execute the plan and cadence.

This morning, it was 76 degrees with a dewpoint of 73.

8 miles, 1:41:31, 12:41 pace, 140 avg bpm, 153 max bpm during mile 3, 172 avg spm, 0.74 m avg stride length, 12:35 1st half pace and 12:47 2nd half pace.

  1. 12:47, 128 bpm, 172 spm, 73 sl
  2. 12:29, 140 bpm, 172 spm, 75 sl
  3. 12:30, 143 bpm, 172 spm, 75 sl
  4. 12:31, 142 bpm, 173 spm, 75 sl
  5. 12:57, 140 bpm, 171 spm, 73 sl
  6. 12:48, 143 bpm, 172 spm, 73 sl
  7. 12:56, 141 bpm, 171 spm, 73 sl
  8. 12:32, 146 bpm, 172 spm, 75 sl


I was getting tired during mile 7, but I trudged on by concentrating on a landmark and heading for it.  I was sure that I was in the 160's for cadence in the later miles, but it ended up to not be true.   Approval   And for the day of the week that has been the slowest run of the past 3 weeks, today, was the fastest run of the week and of the whole 3 week experiment.   affraid 

This has been a great week for my running.  32 miles were ran and 29 of the miles (91%) were at a cadence of 170 or greater.  Last week I was at 50%.  Monday will start the 4th week of 4-8s at 174.  Maybe I can engage some hip rotation to see what happens.  I would think that 4 weeks of 32 miles each is not hurting my endurance one bit.  The plan is to stick with 174 cadence all the way through the Houston marathon in January.  I have 11 weeks before I start training for the Houston marathon and the 2 races, plus one pacing duty, in the Fall.  Thanks for reading.

Below are the times for all 3 Friday runs:
June 20 - 1:41:31, 12:41 pace, 140 avg bpm, 172 spm, 8 splits of 170 or greater.
June 13 - 1:53:22, 14:10 pace, 137 avg bpm, 160 spm, 2 splits of 170 or greater.
June 6 - 1:51:53, 13:59 pace, 136 avg bpm, 163 spm, 1 split of 170 or greater.


Last edited by ounce on Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : fill in the X)
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Post  nkrichards Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:29 am

Still racking up impressive numbers I see.  Nice job!
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Post  ounce Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:16 pm

nkrichards wrote:Still racking up impressive numbers I see.  Nice job!
Aw, shucks.  Well, I'm just trying to get some consistency and durability.

***
In the morning, I'm scrapping the 4 weeks of 8 mile runs, 4 days a week because achieving 91% of the 32 miles at 170 or greater seems to have accomplished the objective.  So, the next step is something easy to remember and hopefully able to execute in 3 or 4 weeks.

Drum roll please....4 weeks of 9 mile runs, 4 days a week.  What a devious plan!  StirPot 

If I counted correctly, I have 11 weeks before my marathon training cycle begins.  Let the games begin!
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Post  ounce Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:46 pm

I felt justified for creating a new 3 or 4 week plan of 9 miles for 4 days a week, because last week I hit 170 or greater for cadence on 91% of the 32 mile splits.  I do want to increase my endurance between now and September at this cadence because I think it is key for the increased cadence plan.  In 3 or 4 weeks, I'll jump to 4-10s.  Then after that 4-11s.  6-8 weeks is as far out into the future that I want to go, right now.  But me running 40 or 44 miles in the off season is unheard of for me.  I hope the endurance is only matched by a well functioning body.

And while I did well, today, it's just day 1 of week 1.  I'm too much of a babe in running to start thumpin' my chest.  It was 78 degrees with a dewpoint of 76 degrees with a more there than not south breeze.

9 miles, 1:53:02, 12:33 pace, 148 average bpm, 160 max bpm during mile 9, 172 avg spm, 0.75 m avg stride length.

  1. 12:45, 140 bpm, 172 spm, 73 sl
  2. 12:26, 143 bpm, 173 spm, 75 sl
  3. 12:27, 145 bpm, 173 spm, 75 sl
  4. 12:38, 150 bpm, 173 spm, 74 sl
  5. 12:33, 149 bpm, 172 spm, 75 sl
  6. 12:46, 149 bpm, 172 spm, 73 sl
  7. 12:50, 149 bpm, 171 spm, 73 sl
  8. 12:20, 153 bpm, 171 spm, 76 sl
  9. 12:16, 155 bpm, 170 spm, 77 sl


Again, I thought I wasn't going to hit all = or > 170 spm.  But I sorta think that as long as I do miles below 13, my spm will be 170 or greater.  Mile 4 was a slight incline, but for some reason it spiked my HR.  When I was running 8's, I never hit this part of the running trail, but my cadence was 173.  It seems that I haven't mastered running inclines under ChiRunning.  But that's okay because this stretch of the running trail will be hit constantly between now and January.

The last 2 miles showed my longest stride lengths, even though I wasn't doing full hip rotation.  I was trying to go faster, though, so that piece did work well.  I was also in a new pair of Kinvara 4 vizi-glos.  I had just a little right plantar niggle, twice.  I will watch that.  The other running shoes do not create niggles.  It could just be part of the break-in process.  I just hope the shoes break before the plantar.

This was also the fastest paced comparable run in a month, but I wasn't trying for that.  Thanks for coming by.
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Post  ounce Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:52 am

The thing to watch for today's 9 miler is residual tiredness in the legs from yesterday's 9.  And depending on how tired the legs are will dictate cadence and pace.  It was 75 degrees with a dewpoint of 73 and ZERO wind.

9 miles, 1:56:22, 12:56 pace, 142 avg HR, 153 max HR during mile x, 171 spm cadence, 12:48 1st half pace and 13:04 2nd half pace, 0.73 m average stride length.


  1. 12:58, 136 bpm, 172 spm, 72 sl
  2. 12:38, 143 bpm, 172 spm, 74 sl
  3. 12:44, 142 bpm, 171 spm, 74 sl
  4. 12:44, 143 bpm, 172 spm, 74 sl
  5. 13:09, 140 bpm, 170 spm, 72 sl
  6. 12:53, 142 bpm, 171 spm, 73 sl
  7. 13:04, 141 bpm, 170 spm, 72 sl
  8. 13:10, 143 bpm, 168 spm, 73 sl
  9. 13:02, 146 bpm, 169 spm, 73 sl


This was a tiring run and I was very surprised that I was able to hold 170's through mile 7.  But I reckon that I'll be able to get past that in a couple of weeks.

I am considering a notion that after the 3rd week of 9's the next week would be a stepback week to give my legs a little time to recuperate after 7 weeks of work.  It might preclude some overtraining muscle issues by cutting the mileage back by half.

Another interesting thing to me, not necessarily the reader, is my blood ketone level jumped from 0.4 yesterday to 1.2, this morning.  I have found through the last 6 weeks that if my blood ketone level jumps, it usually means my body is under-proteined.  I try to keep the carbs and protein to 50 grams a day and yesterday it was probably in the 60-70 gram range.  So even with a 20% increase in protein, my blood ketone level still tripled.  (You see, excess protein converts to sugar which lowers the blood ketone level, so my body went through all of the protein supplied and could have handled more to repair any damage to fibers from Monday's run, but since it didn't, the result was an increase in blood ketones.)


Last edited by ounce on Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:17 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : an interesting thing)
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Post  ounce Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:37 am

Today is a rest day.  And I can report that comparing last week's rest day to today's rest day, I hit it on the head.  Suspect 8.5 hours sleep.  Very Happy 

My blood ketone level returned to 0.4 after consuming a half pound of brisket for lunch and 6 pieces of sushi for dinner.  So my protein supply is comparable to demand, now.  It's great what a year's worth of experience can do to assess weird occurrences.

Tomorrow and Friday finish out week 1 of the 9 mile runs at 174 cadence.  And looking at this paper that John Hadd (Walsh) had written a few years ago about endurance http://www.angio.net/personal/run/hadd , my heart rate of 75% of HR max (200 bpm) for the runs is right where it should be.  I hope to really be an endurance animal by the 2nd week in September ending at 44 miles/week, when that 18 week cycle begins.

Y'all have a good day.
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Post  ounce Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:10 am

Today, I was wanting to see some consistency in cadence and generally less tired than I would expect on a Thursday run, as Thursdays follow 1 rest day.  It was 73 degrees this morning with a dewpoint of 71 and zip on wind.  It's a little cooler than in the past 10 days or so because we've had rain the past couple of days, which has kept the temperature down in the daylight.

9 miles, 1:52:04, 12:17 pace, 143 avg HR, 160 max HR during mile 9, 172 spm, and 0.75 m stride length.

  1. 12:46, 127 bpm, 172 spm, 73 sl
  2. 12:29, 138 bpm, 173 spm, 75 sl
  3. 12:13, 141 bpm, 173 spm, 76 sl
  4. 12:29, 144 bpm, 173 spm, 75 sl
  5. 12:48, 143 bpm, 171 spm, 73 sl
  6. 12:23, 146 bpm, 172 spm, 76 sl
  7. 12:32, 147 bpm, 172 spm, 75 sl
  8. 12:18, 149 bpm, 170 spm, 77 sl
  9. 12:04, 155 bpm, 172 spm, 77 sl


I started out a little tired, which was expected, but I'm doing much better at being able to hold cadence, even when tired.  BUT, today's pace and average HR was better than Monday's run (12:33 pace, 148 avg HR, 172 spm).  This can be attributed to going up an incline during mile 4, on Monday and the resulting HR splits were no less than 149 for the rest of the run.

This exercise or experiment over the past 4 weeks concerns me to some degree because every increase in a mileage is almost like I've never done that distance in the past.  The only part that's true is that I've never done a longer distance at the new cadence.  So where I'd like to continue increasing the endurance past the start of the training cycle, I don't know how that will affect the training cycle, when I need to go long.  Or put another way, When is enough endurance enough?

I think I'll pose the question to the general population.
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Post  ounce Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:33 pm

The fourth and last day of week 1's 9 mile/day at 174 spm happened this morning.  I was hoping for a good showing as far as cadence and pace, but didn't get it.  My legs must've been cumulatively tired for today's run. The left shin's lateral muscle was barking a bit and I know that will slow down a run very quickly.  I'm surprised that mile 2 had a >170 spm.

As much as I would've liked to have stopped and turned around, an experiment must be continued.  I turned off the metronome at about 4 miles because I was not able to turnover that fast.  It was 3 weeks on the mile 8 experiment, before I could get 8 splits >170.  So, I figure the additional mileage this week play a huge roll.

It was 75 degrees with a dewpoint of 73, with an occasional southeast breeze.

9 miles, 2:07:12, 14:08 pace, 131 avg bpm, 144 max bpm during mile 1, 160 spm, 0.71 m stride length.

  1. 12:56, 137 bpm, 172 spm, 72 sl
  2. 13:07, 138 bpm, 170 spm, 72 sl
  3. 13:35, 135 bpm, 163 spm, 73 sl
  4. 14:08, 130 bpm, 157 spm, 72 sl
  5. 14:17, 126 bpm, 155 spm, 72 sl
  6. 14:27, 125 bpm, 156 spm, 72 sl
  7. 14:17, 127 bpm, 155 spm, 72 sl
  8. 14:22, 127 bpm, 155 spm, 72 sl
  9. 16:01, 132 bpm, 160 spm, 63 sl


I think the last mile is way off because I probably ran an extra tenth (and further than other 9 mile days) for the end.  But, it's not like I'm getting paid or something.

Maybe next Friday, I'll put up half of the miles at >170.  I would appreciate y'alls thoughts on the "When to start a training cycle" thread.  Have a nifty weekend.
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Post  ounce Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:36 am

I want to scribble down some thoughts as June comes to a close and the end of 4 weeks of some repetitive, cadence memorization that also builds some new muscle fibers & capillary networks in my legs while covering about 145 miles in the month.  The mileage itself is rather huge for me in the Summer.  I don't think that I've ever run more than 100 miles in a month during the Summer, when I'm not training for a Fall marathon.

Jim had mentioned in this blog that if I could add another day of running that it would really help.  And with increasing my cadence from the 150 range to 174, I'm hoping the extra day of running will really pay some dividends as the training cycle for Houston begins in, now, mid to late September.

Running the 4 x 8 or 9 mile weeks was more difficult than I thought it would be and I also thought I would adapt quicker.  But the muscles had their own schedule on helping me out, namely 3 weeks.  But the possibilities of this mitochondrial and capillary long-term construction event is pretty exciting.

For the marathon training cycle, I think that I'll alternate running 3 days for a couple of weeks, then a step back week of 4 days, but it's not set in stone yet.

And I lost 6 pounds, this month.  I gained almost 20 back from January, but I've tightened up on the foods I eat.  The 4 day week running didn't hurt the weight loss.  I appear not to have any injuries and the Kinvara 4's are doing fine, plus I've replaced the 1st pair bought in October and put them in service.

Thanks for stopping by.
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Post  ounce Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:24 pm

Monday has usually been a good running day, over the past 4 weeks.  Not this week.  The body has filed a protest, subsequent (or maybe during) the almost 9 mile run, stating that it's tired and it needs a rest.  So, I guess my consecutive weeks of 32 or 36 miles has run-until-protest of 4 weeks.  And that's fine.  I'm glad the protest was filed, rather than the body just up and quitting. 

It was 76 degrees with a dewpoint of 75.

8.81 miles, 1:58:45, 13:29 pace, 142 avg bpm, 154 max bpm during mile 4, 168 avg spm, 0.71 m stride length

  1. 12:41, 136 bpm, 170 spm, 75 sl
  2. 12:37, 140 bpm, 173 spm, 74 sl
  3. 12:46, 143 bpm, 172 spm, 73 sl
  4. 12:54, 146 bpm, 173 spm, 72 sl
  5. 13:04, 147 bpm, 171 spm, 72 sl
  6. 13:18, 148 bpm, 171 spm, 71 sl
  7. 13:44, 145 bpm, 168 spm, 70 sl
  8. 14:24, 141 bpm, 165 spm, 68 sl
  9. 16:29 pace, 132 bpm, 150 spm, 65 sl


I was very surprised that >170 spm has reached into the 13 minute/mile realm for the first time.  I had thought that a 13:05 split would give a 170, but not a 13:18.  So, I'm going to see how I feel Thursday morning and might run a lactate threshhold test.  If not, then Monday.

Thanks for stopping by.

Addendum***

Looking at a meters to inches website, the difference between a 0.75 m stride length in mile 1 to the 0.65 m stride length during mile 9 is 4 inches.  So over the 0.81 miles, I approximately ran 2,053 strides.  Had I run the same distance at a stride length of 0.75 m, the number of strides would have been 1,769, which is 283 strides LESS than the 0.65 m stride length.

283 strides in ONLY 0.81 miles.  Spread that over many miles and stride length becomes important.
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Post  ounce Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:13 am

After Monday's uninspiring run, I did not run Tuesday and Wednesday because the muscles were crying, "UNCLE!"  This morning, I started back up with a benchmark test of when lactate threshhold affects pace.

We all know that endurance changes the point at which lactate threshhold comes in to play and slows us down.  A year ago, Mark had linked this http://www.angio.net/personal/run/hadd in my other blog that speaks to endurance and provides a plan and some measuring metrics for targeting a pace and how endurance plays a part.  I've been reading it over and over to absorb all the writings.

There's a metric in there that is to be done every 6 weeks to see how your endurance is getting better, based on HRmax.  I know my HRmax is 201, or rounded to 200 for ease of calculating stuff.  So, for me it's
Run 2,400m at a steady rate of 70% of HRmax (140 bpm).  Then stop, record time, and rest for 90 seconds.
Run 2,400m at a steady rate of 75% of HRmax (150 bpm).  Then stop, record time, and rest for 90 seconds.
Run 2,400m at a steady rate of 80% of HRmax (160 bpm). Then stop, record time, and rest for 90 seconds.
Run 2,400m at a steady rate of 85% of HRmax (170 bpm). Then stop, record time, and rest for 90 seconds.
Run 2,400m at a steady rate of 90% of HRmax (180 bpm). Then stop and record time.

So 5-1.5 mile runs and you could take 600-800 meters to get up to the prescribed HR.
I thought today would be a good day to do this because I would be able to rest 3 days before running on Monday and I've had 2 days rest.  The author ideally wants you to do this test when you are rested as if you were racing on test day.

73 degrees with a dewpoint of 73 (100% humidity!) and no wind, of course.  Targeting a cadence of 174 for all runs.
140 bpm - 19:28, pace 13:00/mile, 171 spm, 72 sl
150 bpm - 18:00, pace 11:58/mile, 172 spm, 78 sl
160 bpm - 16:53, pace 11:15/mile, 172 spm, 83 sl
170 bpm - 15:45, pace 10:31/mile, 172 spm, 89 sl
180 bpm - did not complete...too wore out.

The author believes that endurance training is the way to get your times down and your lactate threshhold delayed as a result.  He also believes that running a marathon (miles 5-25) at 85% (170 bpm for me) is the proper pace.  This pace is the specific part of the test that will tell you if your endurance base is sufficient to accomplish your goal.  It doesn't mean that I can run that race today and finish with the desired time, just that my base is sufficient to continue training.  Had my endurance base been insufficient, I would just need to work on my endurance base and re-test in 6 weeks.

My goal for the coming Houston is 5 hours or 11 minute/miles (4:50 finishing time).  So according to the author, if my endurance base is sufficient, I should be able to run the 170 bpm piece at a 11:00 pace.  Today, I ran it at 10:31, which implies that my endurance base is sufficient to run a 4:29 marathon.  This past Houston, I ran a 5:24.

I don't fully believe that I could run at 85% for 20 miles, but I DO think that if I work on my endurance base some more, that I could lower my 160 bpm (80%) from 11:15 pace to 11.  And since I have 10-12 weeks before the training cycle starts, I think I can.

It's pretty encouraging.  And did you notice that while my cadence stayed very consistent, my times decreased?  Hmmm.

I was just too tuckered out to try to get my heart rate up to 180.  My quads were starting to generally feel different.  The 170 bpm test was a little tiring, but I kept going.  The 10:31 pace split out as 10:19 for the 1st mile and 10:53 pace for the half mile.  So, there was some slowing.

The author states to start back at 70% to build the endurance to the degree that you could run 10 miles comfortably and probably run another 10 miles as comfortably.  THEN, you could increase the pace to 75% with the same goal.

Back to running on Monday.  Have a good 4th, y'all.

 Ride
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Post  Michele "1L" Keane Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:03 pm

Interesting, Doug.  My fastest marathons in the last few years were all run at 80% for the majority after a slow warm up.

What I find most interesting is the difference in our stride lengths.  My natural cadence is around 174-176 at a normal GA pace and higher when I run faster (working on trying to even that up a bit although the Good Form Running guy said not to worry about that) but my stride length is 0.97-1m.  It's funny because you are a lot taller/bigger person than I.  I know I have long legs and wow, I must have had a real long stride (for my size) in the past as I've shortened it while working on maximizing cadence at all paces.
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Post  ounce Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:11 pm

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Interesting, Doug.  My fastest marathons in the last few years were all run at 80% for the majority after a slow warm up.

What I find most interesting is the difference in our stride lengths.  My natural cadence is around 174-176 at a normal GA pace and higher when I run faster (working on trying to even that up a bit although the Good Form Running guy said not to worry about that) but my stride length is 0.97-1m.  It's funny because you are a lot taller/bigger person than I.  I know I have long legs and wow, I must have had a real long stride (for my size) in the past as I've shortened it while working on maximizing cadence at all paces.

Yeah, the data is interesting.  As far as stride length, I had noticed yours on your GarminConnect runs.  I'm just growing into that cadence with the metronome.  I really don't know how much longer mine will become, as I get settled into it.  Keep in mind that ChiRunning or Good Form Running doesn't allow for the lead foot to go very far past the body, as it's a full mid-foot striking the pavement.  So, the heel of the lead foot never strikes.  I don't know if your heel strikes or not.

A metronome might help you with increasing the cadence.  The metronome I have sells on Amazon for $31 and $24 on ChiRunning's site, plus 3 bucks or so for shipping.

Thanks, Michele, for stopping by.
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Post  Michele "1L" Keane Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:10 pm

ounce wrote:
Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Interesting, Doug.  My fastest marathons in the last few years were all run at 80% for the majority after a slow warm up.

What I find most interesting is the difference in our stride lengths.  My natural cadence is around 174-176 at a normal GA pace and higher when I run faster (working on trying to even that up a bit although the Good Form Running guy said not to worry about that) but my stride length is 0.97-1m.  It's funny because you are a lot taller/bigger person than I.  I know I have long legs and wow, I must have had a real long stride (for my size) in the past as I've shortened it while working on maximizing cadence at all paces.

Yeah, the data is interesting.  As far as stride length, I had noticed yours on your GarminConnect runs.  I'm just growing into that cadence with the metronome.  I really don't know how much longer mine will become, as I get settled into it.  Keep in mind that ChiRunning or Good Form Running doesn't allow for the lead foot to go very far past the body, as it's a full mid-foot striking the pavement.  So, the heel of the lead foot never strikes.  I don't know if your heel strikes or not.

A metronome might help you with increasing the cadence.  The metronome I have sells on Amazon for $31 and $24 on ChiRunning's site, plus 3 bucks or so for shipping.

Thanks, Michele, for stopping by.
I've been using a metronome App, and I'm pretty much a mid-foot striker but I do drag through the heel on the right foot when I get tired.  Interestingly enough, it touches very briefly but it makes my ground contact time longer than it should be.
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Post  ounce Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:29 pm

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:
ounce wrote:
Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Interesting, Doug.  My fastest marathons in the last few years were all run at 80% for the majority after a slow warm up.

What I find most interesting is the difference in our stride lengths.  My natural cadence is around 174-176 at a normal GA pace and higher when I run faster (working on trying to even that up a bit although the Good Form Running guy said not to worry about that) but my stride length is 0.97-1m.  It's funny because you are a lot taller/bigger person than I.  I know I have long legs and wow, I must have had a real long stride (for my size) in the past as I've shortened it while working on maximizing cadence at all paces.

Yeah, the data is interesting.  As far as stride length, I had noticed yours on your GarminConnect runs.  I'm just growing into that cadence with the metronome.  I really don't know how much longer mine will become, as I get settled into it.  Keep in mind that ChiRunning or Good Form Running doesn't allow for the lead foot to go very far past the body, as it's a full mid-foot striking the pavement.  So, the heel of the lead foot never strikes.  I don't know if your heel strikes or not.

A metronome might help you with increasing the cadence.  The metronome I have sells on Amazon for $31 and $24 on ChiRunning's site, plus 3 bucks or so for shipping.

Thanks, Michele, for stopping by.
I've been using a metronome App, and I'm pretty much a mid-foot striker but I do drag through the heel on the right foot when I get tired.  Interestingly enough, it touches very briefly but it makes my ground contact time longer than it should be.

Hmmm.  I wonder if you're getting a longer hip rotation, because if we're both mid-feet strikers, then we should be fairly equal on the lead foot distance.  Even if my legs are a bit longer than yours, you're able to equalize it with years of doing it and joint loosening.  I wonder if my weight slows the forward 'throwing' of my lead foot because the leg is heavier.

I bet the end of your stride is a bit longer, too, because your hip joints are very relaxed and because you've done it longer than I.
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Post  Mark B Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:50 pm

Not much to contribute here, other than to say that this is a fascinating discussion. I'm presuming that you can measure stride length thanks to some fancy new whiz-bang technology that's not in my triassic-era Forerunner 305?
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Post  ounce Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:27 pm

Mark B wrote:Not much to contribute here, other than to say that this is a fascinating discussion. I'm presuming that you can measure stride length thanks to some fancy new whiz-bang technology that's not in my triassic-era Forerunner 305?
When my 305 was killed a few months back, I bought a Forerunner 220 ($300), which does not have all the bells and whistles from the 305, e.g. no last lap time or last lap HR  Mad , but has a cadence and stride length measurement without a foot pod.  Michele has a 620, which is the more expensive ($450) and more features sibling of the 620.  Michele's even measures the air TIME between steps.  You can see mine on GarminConnect and I'm sure you can see Michele's, if you ask nicely.  Smile

Don't be a stranger.
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Post  ounce Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:34 pm

Furthering the discussion, I first found this article
http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/11/speed-stride-length-x-stride-frequency.html

Then this one, which is for the mortal runner.
http://runnersconnect.net/running-training-articles/improve-running-speed-step-frequency-and-step-length/

(They all seem to quote a study from the 2007 10K championship about the top 4 runners in that race, Shihine, Bekele, Mathathi, and Tadese)

This article from 2012's Running Times seems to give a little instruction on a few things.
http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/great-cadence-debate?page=single

There's a lot written about the subject, but they all stressed that whether you lengthen your stride in increase you cadence, it's an individual thing.
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Post  ounce Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:33 pm

And this morning, I restarted doing week 2 of 9 miles at 174 spm, 4 days a week.  Last Monday, my body was saying, "Give us a rest."  So I did and today was the restart.

It was 75 degrees with a 73 degree dewpoint and no wind.

9 miles, 1:54:15, 12:42 pace, 143 avg bpm, 159 max bpm during miles 8 & 9, 171 avg spm, 0.74 m average stride length, 1st half pace was 12:41 and 2nd half was 12:43.

  1. 12:25, 135 bpm, 171 spm, 76 sl
  2. 12:35, 140 bpm, 173 spm, 74 sl
  3. 12:31, 143 bpm, 173 spm, 75 sl
  4. 12:42, 146 bpm, 173 spm, 73 sl
  5. 12:47, 145 bpm, 170 spm, 74 sl
  6. 12:59, 145 bpm, 172 spm, 72 sl
  7. 13:11, 147 bpm, 170 spm, 72 sl
  8. 12:37, 152 bpm, 171 spm, 75 sl
  9. 12:30, 155 bpm, 170 spm, 76 sl


It seemed that I was a bit tired, even though I had not run since Thursday.  I will watch it for fatigue.  As a result of last Thursday's evaluation runs, I'm going to try to run at 140-145 bpm for about 5 weeks and then retest on the 6th week.

I did have 9 cadences of 170 or greater.  A concern I have is once the training starts, how will I do at the longer distances at cadence?

Until tomorrow, America.
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Post  ounce Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:10 pm

2nd run of the week and it's 9 miles (surprise!).  I didn't start out too bad, this morning, but as the miles went along, the pace started to slip.  If the 8 mile-4 week experience is any gauge, this is normal until week 3. 

I have pretty much decided to do the training cycle on a 3 day/week pattern with an occasional 4 day week.  Of course, I won't be doing this sort of base building, but more of a traditional cycle with similar mileage that I'm doing now, i.e. in the 30's.

This morning, the temperature was 77 degrees with a dewpoint of 73 and no wind, again.

9 miles, 2:00:04, 13:20 pace, 141 avg bpm, 156 max bpm during mile 4, 165 spm, 0.73 m stride length, 1st half pace 12:48, 2nd half pace 13:52.

  1. 12:51, 132 bpm, 172 spm, 73 sl
  2. 12:34, 142 bpm, 173 spm, 74 sl
  3. 12:48, 146 bpm, 171 spm, 73 sl
  4. 12:52, 148 bpm, 170 spm, 73 sl
  5. 13:09, 145 bpm, 169 spm, 72 sl
  6. 13:37, 142 bpm, 168 spm, 70 sl
  7. 14:05, 140 bpm, 157 spm, 73 sl
  8. 14:05, 138 bpm, 154 spm, 74 sl
  9. 14:03, 137 bpm, 155 spm, 74 sl


I don't want this switch to cadence-based running to screw my opportunity to run longer, faster.  I realize this base building is atypical to conventional thought.  I do believe it will payoff.  Heck, I may just stay at 9's until I start the cycle or switch up the mileage, but still 36 miles.  However, this slowing sure is disheartening, even though I will stick with it.

Wednesday is the usual rest day, but I'm going to the Queen concert Wednesday night, so I'm not sure if I'll run Thursday morning or tomorrow.  It won't be the best next run that I've ever ran.  Thanks for stopping by.
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Post  Michele "1L" Keane Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:16 pm

Queen - my all time favorite bad, but without Freddie - how will they be?  I assume you are seeing the version with Adam Lambert as the lead singer?  At least he is almost as flamboyant as Freddie was.
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Post  ounce Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:03 pm

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Queen - my all time favorite bad, but without Freddie - how will they be?  I assume you are seeing the version with Adam Lambert as the lead singer?  At least he is almost as flamboyant as Freddie was.
The San Jose and Vancouver papers gave it high marks, last week.  Adam Lambert can't go as low as Freddie, but can match on going high.  It's supposed to be the last tour for Brian May and Roger Taylor.

20 songs, starting with "Now I'm Here" and my favorite Queen song is "Love of My Life", which is sung at the concert as well.  I hope the Houston crowd will be like a British crowd and join in the singing, but I doubt it.  Right now, I'm playing the Queen at Wembley DVD.

There was a stage play based on the music of Queen that I saw earlier in the year.  Wasn't worth the money.
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Post  Michele "1L" Keane Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:06 pm

Glad you told me that about the play/musical.  We almost saw it in London, but it closed the day before we arrived.  Good, I guess.   My favorite Queen song besides  "Killer Queen" is "Don't Stop Me Now".  Maybe I can suggest it to Nick for his motivational song - of course, he is a bit young to know anything but Bohemian Rhapsody and that might be because he saw Wayne's World once - lol.
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Post  Jim Lentz Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:38 am

Lots of good data. I think the temps/humidity are going to have a big effect on your HR/fatigue.
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Post  mul21 Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:52 am

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Glad you told me that about the play/musical.  We almost saw it in London, but it closed the day before we arrived.  Good, I guess.   My favorite Queen song besides  "Killer Queen" is "Don't Stop Me Now".  Maybe I can suggest it to Nick for his motivational song - of course, he is a bit young to know anything but Bohemian Rhapsody and that might be because he saw Wayne's World once - lol.

I went and saw it in St. Louis and actually really enjoyed it.  It's very campy, but the music was fantastic and it was just a fun, lighthearted show.  The story was definitely goofy, but the music more than made up for it.
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