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Stalking 50

+31
Jim Lentz
Nick Morris
Schuey
wendy_miller
Dave P
nkrichards
amyjoann
Natalie63
healdgator
ounce
fostever
Ben Z
KBFitz
Chris M
JohnP
Seth Harrison
Alex Kubacki
Dave Wolfe
KathyK
T Miller
Kenny B.
mul21
Glenn
John Kilpatrick
Mike MacLellan
dot520
Jerry
Michele "1L" Keane
charles.moman
Michael Enright
Mark B
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Post  Mark B Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:35 pm

Low HR Run: 12.28 miles

Weather: Mostly cloudy, 55, 90% humidity. Gear: Altra Instincts, shorts, T, jacket (peeled off when it didn't rain, after all), hat. Fuel: Grape Nuts and coffee before, nuun in handheld during. Took one S-Cap before, two during.

Everything was discombobulated for this run, as I transition from mid-morning to early-morning midweek runs and shift my run sequence around to put my sorta-long run on Thursday rather than Friday. As if my body wasn't confused enough, I had GI issues from a less-than-ideal dinner last night. 

It all added up to a less-than-great run. But that's part of the process, right? To train yourself to keep going even when things aren't going all that well? Hope so.

Anyway, when I look at the HR track, I see a nice steady effort level, mostly below my MAF heart rate, and the splits show a reasonable pace, too. Faster than I'll be going at Mount Hood, certainly.

Walked first and last 5 minutes. Average HR for entire run: 134
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Post  Mark B Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:00 pm

Hill Run: 6.38 miles

Weather: Overcast, mild, muggy. 54 degrees, 91% humidity. Gear: Altra Instincts, shorts, T. Fuel: Half a cup of coffee before. Carried nuun in handheld. 1 S-Cap before.

Didn't feel like eating anything this morning, so I tried just a half cup of coffee to get the body going (so to speak) before my run in the hills near my house. 

My HR dipped to the mid 50s before I started, and I was able to keep it in my hill-modified low HR guidelines, with average HRs at or below my MAF target and HR maxes not *too* far above it.

On hills, I let my HR rise to 143. When it ratchets up to 144 or 145, I slow down and see if I can get it to settle back down. It usually does. If I hit 146, I walk. Well, unless I'm almost at the top… then I ease up and keep going. 

The run felt fairly relaxed, though it was weird running with no fuel at all. I think it was more psychological than physical, though. 

I tried to relax on both the uphills and the downhills. Some downhills I took faster, and it wasn't too difficult to coast along at a sub-8 pace on the roads. 

All in all, not bad!

Walked first and last 5 minutes. Average HR for entire run: 129
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Post  nkrichards Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:21 pm

Mark,
I've enjoyed reading about your low heart rate runs.  I have a tendency to push the pace partly just because that's the way I am and partly because I only run 3 days a week.  I've been pushing a bit harder than I should lately and it was beginning to wear on me so I decided to take it a bit easier today.  I had 13 miles scheduled and tried to slow down a bit and run by effort and not watch the clock as much.  It went well!  My average HR was 143 and would have been even lower if I hadn't pushed the pace the last couple miles.  I'm normally up in the high 150's or low 160's so I'm pretty pleased with that...and my pace was only around 15-20 seconds slower than normal.Smile

Enjoy your run on the course on Sunday.
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Post  Michele "1L" Keane Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:45 pm

Nice run again, Mark.  Wish you had a marathon scheduled in your future as I think you would blow away that current PR.

What do you know about the Silver Falls marathon?  My Dad's doctor is a marathoner (she's my age) and has been looking to run it, so my Mom told me about it, and we decided maybe next fall.
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Post  Mark B Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:44 pm

nkrichards wrote:Mark,
I've enjoyed reading about your low heart rate runs.  I have a tendency to push the pace partly just because that's the way I am and partly because I only run 3 days a week.  I've been pushing a bit harder than I should lately and it was beginning to wear on me so I decided to take it a bit easier today.  I had 13 miles scheduled and tried to slow down a bit and run by effort and not watch the clock as much.  It went well!  My average HR was 143 and would have been even lower if I hadn't pushed the pace the last couple miles.  I'm normally up in the high 150's or low 160's so I'm pretty pleased with that...and my pace was only around 15-20 seconds slower than normal.Smile

Enjoy your run on the course on Sunday.

Thanks, Nancy! And great work on your run today. Easing up the throttle a little makes it possible for you to go farther, and to build fitness with less risk of burnout or injury.

Easy for me to say now. Transitioning to a low heart rate approach wasn't easy. I had to disconnect my ego; I told myself that I know I can run faster, but that wasn't the point of this type of training. Speed comes (and it did), but only as the body adapts to the repeated lower-level stimulus. 

If you haven't read Maffetone, it's well worth the time. You can get his books on Amazon used for cheap-cheap-cheap! 

I'm looking forward to Sunday's run. It will be nice to get out there and see what the race director has in store for us! I'm hearing that downed tree hurdling may be a part of the experience. What a Face

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Nice run again, Mark.  Wish you had a marathon scheduled in your future as I think you would blow away that current PR.

What do you know about the Silver Falls marathon?  My Dad's doctor is a marathoner (she's my age) and has been looking to run it, so my Mom told me about it, and we decided maybe next fall.

SHHHH!!! Michele! Ixnay onay arathonmay alktay! The last thing I need right now is that sort of distraction! I am laser-locked on my current foolishness and only a few days away from taper! (Post on that aspect to come later.)

BUT... my brother-in-law who is coming up to help crew on July 13 is running his first marathon at CIM in early December, about 22 weeks or so after the MH50. (With plenty of time to add some speed endurance to this immense base I've built.) It wouldn't be inconceivable if I (cough, cough) somehow found myself talked into something...  But I digress

I had never heard of the Silver Falls Marathon, so I looked it up here. It's a trail race in a very beautiful part of the state, in the foothills of the Cascade Range. In November, which around these parts is either wet and chilly, foggy and chillier or clear and cold. Okay, not Midwest cold, but still.

I found this fun description on the website: 

IF YOU'RE COMING HERE EXPECTING A NICE EASY LITTLE RUN IN THE PARK AND A POSSIBLE PR, THINK AGAIN...THIS MOTHA PACKS A PUNCH AND FEATURES SIGNIFICANT ELEVATION GAIN WITH TONS OF MUD, ROCKS, CREEK CROSSINGS AND DID WE SAY HILLS? YES THERE ARE LOTS OF HILLS! 

Sounds like fun, actually. Well, in a masochistic, hypothermic sort of way. geek
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Post  Mark B Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:31 pm

So, about that taper.

Regular readers will know that, math genius that I am, I somehow managed to miscalculate the training plan I've been using to get ready for the Mount Hood 50. That left me with either a single high-mileage climax week rather than two (the plan was designed with segments of two hard weeks all the way up to taper) and a full three-week taper, OR to do the last two hard weeks and then have a two-week taper.

Except that two week taper is actually more like 13 days.

I was able to convince myself either way (and I did, alternately) until I gave up and sent an email to Nancy Shura-Devin, the UltraLadies coach who designed the plan in the first place.

The interchange follows: 

Me: Nancy, I've been using your plan to prepare for the Mount Hood 50 on July 13, and it's been working very well for me. I have a bit of a problem, however: I miscounted the weeks and am facing the decision of either dropping one of the last two hard weeks (the 28-12) or doing that week and ending up with a 13-day taper.  I have been going back and forth on what to do, so I'm wondering what the person who devised the plan in the first place might suggest. 

Nancy: I would not recommend 28/12 with a 13-day taper for a newbie. Generally, the last month of training is the least important of all the months on the schedule. The bulk of the training for your 50M event is in the weeks leading up to the last month. Missing long training weekends in the preceeding weeks can make it problematic to stick to the schedule of mileage buildup. Missing one high mileage weekend at the end of the schdule will not hurt you one bit and may even help you come to the race stronger, with little "issues" fully recovered and very eager to "race". It is common for ultra runners to experience some anxiety at the end of their training, that they should have done more, and it sometimes causes them to throw in an extra long run or two. While this might be good for the psyche, it is rarely good for the body. This runner is likely to come to the start line with residual fatigue on the body and legs that will surface sometime on race day. 

Me: Does the benefit of one last hard week outweigh a diminished taper?

Nancy: Absolutely not! When in doubt, always vote for the full taper at the end. Taper is a critical part of "training", to be sure you have fresh body, mind and legs for the race. By body, I am referring to the endocrine system that takes a beating from the high mileage training. The endocrine system controls your hormones that regulate how your entire body handles the stress on race day. Take the full taper period; it's not just about the legs.

Me: This is my first 50 miler, and my first ultra.  Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I have really enjoyed this plan.

Nancy: Smart ultra runners train smart and race smart. They always err on the side of "less is more." I teach quality of training over quantity of training. Statistically, higher mileage training does not equal high finisher rates. Runners who train at higher mileage just tend to run faster races than lower mileage runners, maybe because speed is involved in covering more mileage in the same amount of time ("time on your feet"). That said, the higher mileage runners also have more issues/injuries than the lower mileage runners have. My last piece of advice is better to come to the start line a little undertrained than to be a little over tired.


Well, al-righty, then! You can't get more clear advice than that, can you? So that means this weekend's run up on the Pacific Crest Trail, followed by a 12-miler on Monday, will be the last back-to-back before the big adventure. 

That means (gulp!) that taper starts Monday. Hold on to your hats!

Nancy was very friendly and helpful. She asked me to let her know how it goes, and she also sent me a flyer offering her coaching services. You know, for next time. Smile
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Post  Michele "1L" Keane Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:38 am

That email exchange just shows what is so beautiful about our sport at all levels.  Good luck on Sunday and good luck with taper!!
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Post  Mark B Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:55 pm

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:That email exchange just shows what is so beautiful about our sport at all levels.  Good luck on Sunday and good luck with taper!!

Thanks, Michele! Yes, she was very helpful. I'm feeling more confident going into this last big weekend, even if I don't get 28 miles in tomorrow. The real work has already been done.

It's great how people are willing to share their experience with others. We're all in this together. Smile

Tomorrow could be more interesting than planned: the forecast is calling for an 80% chance of rain up there tomorrow. That could make a wet run for me... and a lot of hunkering down in a car for Alita and Alec. Suspect
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Post  dot520 Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:36 pm

I missed a few weeks of your training and will have to go back and read those....however, when did you get the definitive answer that you were IN the Mount Hood 50?  Last I remember you were pretty sure that you would get in but it was still up in the air.  Oh, the excitement is mounting...especially when you nearly explode during the taper!!  Yahooo!
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Post  nkrichards Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:33 pm

Mark B wrote:

Tomorrow could be more interesting than planned: the forecast is calling for an 80% chance of rain up there tomorrow. That could make a wet run for me... and a lot of hunkering down in a car for Alita and Alec. Suspect

I wondered what the weather on the mountain would be like when I saw that we had a 60% chance of rain here in sunny Central Oregon.  Better for the rain this weekend than during the race though.  Hopefully you'll get a break and at least a bit of sunshine tomorrow.  Good luck.
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Post  Mark B Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:58 pm

dot520 wrote:I missed a few weeks of your training and will have to go back and read those....however, when did you get the definitive answer that you were IN the Mount Hood 50?  Last I remember you were pretty sure that you would get in but it was still up in the air.  Oh, the excitement is mounting...especially when you nearly explode during the taper!!  Yahooo!

Hey, Dot! Thanks for stopping by. I finally found out I was in the Mount Hood 50 late in the evening of May 23 -- the night before the deadline I'd set for myself to either be in the MH50 or sign up for the White River 50 instead. I sent the RD one last note a day or two before, saying it was now or never, and he replied by telling me that there was a spot for me if I wanted it.  Very Happy

It was very good news, but very surprising. I'd mostly convinced myself that I'd be doing White River, and I'd even upped my hill work in preparation for the extra-huge climbs that race offered. I'm glad I did, because I'm betting those new muscles are going to come in handy at Mount Hood,  too.

Speaking of Mount Hood, I'm getting pretty excited about that training run tomorrow. I can't imagine how amped up I'll be the week of July 13. bouncebouncebounce  

nkrichards wrote:
Mark B wrote:Tomorrow could be more interesting than planned: the forecast is calling for an 80% chance of rain up there tomorrow. That could make a wet run for me... and a lot of hunkering down in a car for Alita and Alec. Suspect

I wondered what the weather on the mountain would be like when I saw that we had a 60% chance of rain here in sunny Central Oregon.  Better for the rain this weekend than during the race though.  Hopefully you'll get a break and at least a bit of sunshine tomorrow.  Good luck.

Hi, Nancy! I'm hoping that the forecasters are wrong -- they're probably not, as I've been seeing high clouds moving through all day -- but if there's anything I'm used to, it's running in wet conditions. I hope it doesn't rain too much, though, mostly so Alec and Alita can get out and enjoy the outdoors.

Oh well. If nothing else, we got a dual USB adapter for the car, so they can use their iPads to keep themselves occupied.
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Post  nkrichards Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:46 pm

It's raining here...
Good thing you're a Duck!
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Post  Michele "1L" Keane Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:02 pm

Hope the run went well!
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Post  Mark B Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:55 pm

nkrichards wrote:It's raining here...
Good thing you're a Duck!

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Hope the run went well!

Thanks, guys!

The weather was mostly kind, with only some light rain in the second half. It was a bigger problem for my entourage then me. 

The run went pretty well. I learned some valuable lessons. 

More later after I have refueled.
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Post  Mark B Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:30 pm

Trail Run: 21.7 miles (?)

Weather: Mild, overcast with a little rain. 60ish. Gear: Altra Superiors, shorts, T. Swapped handheld for Camelbak halfway through. Fuel: S-Caps every 30 minutes. Granola bars at 1, 2, 3 hours. Gu at 1:30, 2:30, 3:30 and 4:00 hours. Carried Roctane drink in handheld, then Camelbak.

This was billed as a 24-mile course preview of the Mount Hood 50, so I willingly stepped back from a planned 28-mile run for the experience. Turns out, it wasn't 24, but closer to about 22. I think the experience was still worth it.

Lesson 1: Don't start off too fast. I got caught up in a trail train early on and ran a couple of miles with my HR way above where it should have been. I thought it was partly because of the altitude, but now I know it was because I was going too fast. I experimented with allowing the higher heart rate so I could assess the consequences. The consequences were that the second half of the run was pretty challenging. Got it.

Lesson 2: Bring everything. Good thing I was prepared for this. It sounded like organizers were going to have mini aid stations set up at the turnaround points on our runs, and at the midpoint. Uh, no. They did have some Gu and fluid at the start and midpoint, but 6 miles out? Nope. I had taken a 20 ounce handheld, thinking I could refill it after 6. Luckily, I hadn't drained the bottle. The race organizer gave me some of his water, which was nice and got me back to the start point for the second leg. I quickly loaded up my Camelbak with extra water I'd brought just in case, and was able to make the second leg without fluid issues. 

Lesson 3: Pick up your $#@% feet! I caught my toe several times (earning props for a great recovery once) and actually fell once. I hardly ever fall! This course has lots of roots just waiting to lay you out. Got it. The second half of the course has bear grass and other plants that can obscure the trail -- just when it gets rocky underfoot. I made it through that, but one of the runners rolled his ankle. Ow. 

Lesson 4: Take care of your crew! Alita and Alec wanted to come along, despite my warnings that they'd be bored out of their skulls (they were). I told them confidently that the meet-up place -- a historic ranger station -- had at least primitive facilities. Um, no. It did not. Oops. Luckily, a campground was about a quarter mile away, and they were able to make a couple of walks to the vault toilets. Whew! I was ready to head home rather than subject them to cooling their heels without the ability to use the loo.

Lesson 5: Walk the uphills. See No. 1 above. 

Lesson 6: Listen to experienced ultra runners. One guy, who'd run Western States last year, offered up a couple of pearls of wisdom: 

"The course doesn't matter as much as how you feel in any given moment."   

And...

"Take it easy in the first 25 miles; then, your body will tell you how fast it wants to go."

Nice, huh?

Okay, enough lessons. The run was challenging but beautiful. It left me a little intimidated, but I think that might actually be a good thing. It will (hopefully) keep me from rabbiting at the start. It didn't help that most of the folks who risked the rainy forecast were the faster runners. It was so easy to get sucked in.

Part of me frets about not doing 28 today, but I also know it's not that important. And besides, my legs are going to be dead enough tomorrow when I got out for my final 12 before launching into taper. 

Here are a few photos from the run. 

Stalking 50 - Page 20 10161110

A typical part of the trail in the first half of the run. Other parts were more rooty and rocky.

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A gorgeous stretch in the second half of the run. The flowers on the tall stems are bear grass.

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A closer look at the flower itself. Very pretty!

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This photo doesn't do them justice, but the shrubs on the left are rhododendrons with gorgeous blossoms. Note the roots, just waiting to strike. Wink


Last edited by Mark B on Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:22 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post  Mark B Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:33 pm

Lastly, here's the map and elevation profile for the run.

Stalking 50 - Page 20 Screen15

Can you see how it might be easy to overdo it in the beginning -- and regret it later? What a Face
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Post  nkrichards Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:51 am

Sounds like overall it was a very successful...and educational...run.  Glad to hear it went well and that the rain held off at least for awhile.

Enjoy your taper!
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Post  Mark B Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:18 am

nkrichards wrote:Sounds like overall it was a very successful...and educational...run.  Glad to hear it went well and that the rain held off at least for awhile.

Enjoy your taper!
Not quite to the taper yet. I have to finish this 12-miler I am doing right now.Yowza.
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Post  Mark B Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:38 pm

Low HR Run: 12.26 miles

Weather: Overcast, mild, humid. 57 degrees, 91% humidity. Gear: Altra Instincts, shorts, T. Fuel: Small serving of Grape Nuts before, with coffee. No calories during run, only nuun and S-caps.

Eleanor Roosevelt famously said once "Do one thing every day that scares you." Well, I can check that one off the list for today. This run scared the crap out of me.

Why? Well, I trashed my legs up on the mountain yesterday. My legs were sore to the touch, and I had a hard time even getting to sleep. When it was time to get up this morning, it wasn't much better. 

I debated as I got up and got ready whether heading out for a run was a good idea or a bad one. I kept getting ready, though, and got myself out the door and moving. I had to take the chance.

That first mile was tough, but I kept telling myself that I'd settle into a rhythm and loosen up. I'm no fan of suffering, but I knew the point of runs like this is to get your brain and body accustomed to less-than-perfect conditions. So I pressed on.

After a while, the discomfort eased and my legs settled into a pace. It was slower than usual, which came as no surprise, but it was a very low heart rate, which was a surprise. I had average heart rates in the low 130s the whole time, and paces in the low- to mid-11s. 

Shouldn't running with trashed legs jack the heart rate? This was crazy, but reassuring. 

I went without any external fuel. Not out of any desire to tap into fat stores. It was more because I couldn't bring myself to consume any hyper-processed performance "food."  And the thing is,  I didn't miss the calories. Hm.

Walked first and last 5 minutes. Average HR for entire run: 128

Now it's time to taper.


Last edited by Mark B on Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Michael Enright Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:55 pm

So, I guess there was a hill in that long trail run?
Yikes!
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Post  Mark B Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:36 pm

Michael Enright wrote:So, I guess there was a hill in that long trail run?
Yikes!

Just an itty-bitty one. Very Happy

For comparison, here's the elevation profile for the whole 50-miler.

Stalking 50 - Page 20 Screen18

Yesterday, we ran out to the first aid station (about 6 miles) and returned to the start, then started again from the sixth to the seventh aid station and back to the sixth (which is also the start/finish). It should be an interesting day.
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Post  Michele "1L" Keane Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:10 pm

Nice work and good lessons learned!  I made the same mistake of going out too fast on a trail half once and paid for it, so I can imagine it would be a big issue in 50 miles.
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Post  Mark B Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:46 pm

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Nice work and good lessons learned!  I made the same mistake of going out too fast on a trail half once and paid for it, so I can imagine it would be a big issue in 50 miles.

Thanks, Michele! There's one thing to crash and burn partway into a marathon and hobble a few miles, but dozens of miles? I shudder to think of it.

So that's the unexpected benefit of that practice run: I had wondered if I could cheat my heart rate up a little while running the race, and maybe be able to go a little faster. Bzzt! Not going to happen. I'm actually glad I made the mistake so I didn't do it when it counted.

So my strategy will be do head out using my traditional heart rate targets: Keep the HR at or below 138 on the flats and downhills, and no higher than 143 on the hills. Otherwise, walk. Walk when taking fuel. Don't worry about falling behind other people. (Heck, I might even walk the first five minutes like I do in training.)

Also: I can't compare myself with anybody and otherwise get competitive. It leads to stupidity (and played a role in what happened yesterday). I need to remember to be humble and just be grateful to be out there and make the best of the day.
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Post  ounce Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:28 pm

Could you apply the "long run, then sorta long run back to back" to a marathon training program?
 
I thought it was cute the person that devised your program called you a 'newbie.'
 
Well, now you've completed all your intensive training.  Your legs will start whining that you don't love them anymore, your mind will start thinking kwazy things about the race, etc.  So this must be-------
 

TAPER MADNESS!!!!!!

TAPER MADNESS!!!!!
 
 
TAPER MADNESS!!!!!! 
 
 
TAPER MADNESS!!!!!!


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Post  ounce Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:30 pm

Have you, uh, checked the weather forecast, yet?StirPot
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