365Runners
Welcome to 365Runners! We are here because we all share a running addiction. Whether training for a first marathon, a new PR, a new race distance, or anything else... welcome!

To stop the banner ads, please register and login. Otherwise, please enjoy browsing as a guest.

Christian Hesch

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Go down

Christian Hesch

Post  Dave-O on Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:42 am

Woke up to this somewhat crazy story: Semi-professional runner, who cherry picks mid-sized races with decent prize purse, admits to using EPO for last 3 years. I'll let the NYT and his confession tell the story.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/15/sports/runner-christian-hesch-describes-doping-with-epo.html?_r=0

http://running.competitor.com/2012/10/news/christian-hesch-publicly-apologizes-for-doping_60364

On a personal level, I met Christian in Austin last January. As Britt and I were walking to our car to drive to the starting line, this random dude in board shorts runs up to me and says, "you look fast, can I hitch a ride to the start?" We drove him and spent time after the race hanging out and sharing a few beers. I have followed his training since and racing since, so this comes as a bit of a shock.
avatar
Dave-O
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1736
Points : 4701
Join date : 2011-06-14
Age : 36
Location : Chicago

View user profile http://www.fleetfeetchicago.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  Dave-O on Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:25 pm

Fascinated by this story. As more details emerge, it sounds like Hesch's "confession" wasn't exactly something he willingly provided.

http://news.runnersworld.com/2012/10/15/road-ace-christian-hesch-doped-facing-ban/
avatar
Dave-O
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1736
Points : 4701
Join date : 2011-06-14
Age : 36
Location : Chicago

View user profile http://www.fleetfeetchicago.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:26 pm

Wow. Makes me wonder though...................
avatar
Michele "1L" Keane
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 4818
Points : 11552
Join date : 2011-06-15
Age : 56
Location : Cleveland (Bay Village), OH/Atlanta, GA

View user profile http://1lranthere.blogspot.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  Admin on Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:29 pm

Looks like a junkie to me... though I'd probably do it, if I could find EPO... and more running talent.

Admin
Admin

Posts : 889
Points : 4077
Join date : 2011-06-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  Jerry on Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:30 pm

If its cheaper like $40 and safe, I would be curious to try it. lol!
avatar
Jerry
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 2712
Points : 1004439
Join date : 2011-06-15
Location : Where I'm Loved

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  Mike MacLellan on Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:10 am

Can I stir the pot just a little? Remember, I'm just asking for the sake of questioning established thought patterns/norms.

What is inherently wrong with doping?
avatar
Mike MacLellan
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 3153
Points : 7849
Join date : 2011-06-14
Age : 31
Location : Arlington, VA

View user profile http://www.facebook.com/mike.a.maclellan

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  mul21 on Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:56 am

@Mike MacLellan wrote:Can I stir the pot just a little? Remember, I'm just asking for the sake of questioning established thought patterns/norms.

What is inherently wrong with doping?

Um, really? I'm surprised by this, even from you. Pretty simply, it's cheating. It creates a playing field that is not level for all involved.
avatar
mul21
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 1481
Points : 4846
Join date : 2011-06-15
Age : 42
Location : St. Louis

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  Admin on Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:06 am

@Mike MacLellan wrote:

What is inherently wrong with doping?

I think it's a fair question. My answer is that there is nothing inherently wrong with an adult individual who chooses to employ PEDs. They are taking on some health risks, of course, but it's hard to argue that it's morally worse than alcohol or tobacco. The argument against PEDs is 'fairness in competition' and how PEDs affect sports. Where it starts to get really socially impacting and morally corrupt is the point where young athletes feel pressured into taking PEDs in order to pursue the sport that they love. How young is 'too young' to start doping? Even with steroids and EPO being illegal and banned in most professional sports they are still believed to be used by many at the high school level in the more competitive systems... those that are big feeders into college sports.

If PEDs were legal and not banned... do you think ANY clean player would make it in MLB or the NFL? I say no, because coaches would expect their players to take every advantage in order to win. Just look at the HR king this year... what did he hit? 41 dingers? Remember just a few years ago... what's different?

So, there's my take. If you want to take testosterone and pump up your muscles that's your choice. I don't have a problem with it. If PEDs were accepted in sports, that I would have a problem with.

Admin
Admin

Posts : 889
Points : 4077
Join date : 2011-06-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  Chris M on Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:08 am

I think Mike is of course just pot stirring but he raises a valid point. We all agree training at altitude is "legal" even though it clearly provides a performance boost. Everyone thinks the Nike house which simulates high altitude conditions for the athletes that live there is fine too. So what's bad about blood doping? You are not taking in ANYTHING new. You remove your own blood and later put it back into you. It obviously provides a huge performance boost but how is that different and somewhat more artificial than what Nike is doing for its athletes in Portland? I'm all for a level playing field being set for athletes to compete on but where the lines get drawn seems pretty arbitrary and not supported by any consistently scientific position.

EDIT - I posted and then saw what Matt wrote. I think he's right on. PEDs inherently or morally bad? No. Against the rules of the sport and therefore worth policing, particularly because of the impact on youth and low income athletes (PEDs are EXPENSIVE) if there is no level playing field? Yes.
avatar
Chris M
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 1061
Points : 3966
Join date : 2011-06-14
Age : 49
Location : Washington, DC

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  Nick Morris on Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:11 am

@mul21 wrote:
@Mike MacLellan wrote:Can I stir the pot just a little? Remember, I'm just asking for the sake of questioning established thought patterns/norms.

What is inherently wrong with doping?

Um, really? I'm surprised by this, even from you. Pretty simply, it's cheating. It creates a playing field that is not level for all involved.

Here we go with the whole conversation about eating specific foods, taking legal nutritional supplements, and drinking caffeine as performance enhancers...
avatar
Nick Morris
Talking To Myself
Talking To Myself

Posts : 5109
Points : 12174
Join date : 2011-06-16
Age : 37
Location : Madison, WI

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  Nick Morris on Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:12 am

It is funny that everyone that admits to doping states that they were only doing it to recover from an injury.
avatar
Nick Morris
Talking To Myself
Talking To Myself

Posts : 5109
Points : 12174
Join date : 2011-06-16
Age : 37
Location : Madison, WI

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  Dave-O on Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:41 am

@Chris M wrote:I think Mike is of course just pot stirring but he raises a valid point. We all agree training at altitude is "legal" even though it clearly provides a performance boost. Everyone thinks the Nike house which simulates high altitude conditions for the athletes that live there is fine too. So what's bad about blood doping? You are not taking in ANYTHING new. You remove your own blood and later put it back into you. It obviously provides a huge performance boost but how is that different and somewhat more artificial than what Nike is doing for its athletes in Portland? I'm all for a level playing field being set for athletes to compete on but where the lines get drawn seems pretty arbitrary and not supported by any consistently scientific position.

EDIT - I posted and then saw what Matt wrote. I think he's right on. PEDs inherently or morally bad? No. Against the rules of the sport and therefore worth policing, particularly because of the impact on youth and low income athletes (PEDs are EXPENSIVE) if there is no level playing field? Yes.

This is incorrect. EPO is a synthetic drug injected into your body. It was developed for anemics and those recovering from chemo. It is much much different than the old school method of blood centrifugation - whereby an athlete would withdraw blood, cetrifuge out the white blood cells, and re-inject the red blood cells prior to competition. (Which is similar to what Kobe, Urlacher and other athletes are having done in Germany).
avatar
Dave-O
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1736
Points : 4701
Join date : 2011-06-14
Age : 36
Location : Chicago

View user profile http://www.fleetfeetchicago.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  Dave-O on Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:45 am

@Mike MacLellan wrote:Can I stir the pot just a little? Remember, I'm just asking for the sake of questioning established thought patterns/norms.

What is inherently wrong with doping?

Not much to add to Matt's answer, but as a follow-up, aren't there body building circuits for clean vs. supplements? Maybe we can do something like that for running, have clean races, where entering such a race on a banned substance is punishable with criminal charges (to ensure no one is tempted). And then a doped circuit where the runners can take whatever the hell they want.

Then, when one of them drops dead from a heart attack because their blood is so doped up its turned to sludge I won't feel bad.

On a more serious notes, I don't ever want to have to tell my kids (ya know, if I ever have one) that to play football he has to start HGH or steroids in high school. Or if she wants to run that she needs to start cycles of EPO every offseason. That's what legalizing everything would result in.

avatar
Dave-O
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1736
Points : 4701
Join date : 2011-06-14
Age : 36
Location : Chicago

View user profile http://www.fleetfeetchicago.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  Dave-O on Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:46 am

@Nick Morris wrote:It is funny that everyone that admits to doping states that they were only doing it to recover from an injury.

My favorite comment I saw on Twitter about Hesch's claim that he never "raced" on EPO, just used it in training:

That's like telling a police officer you weren't drinking and driving, you just drank before you drove.
avatar
Dave-O
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1736
Points : 4701
Join date : 2011-06-14
Age : 36
Location : Chicago

View user profile http://www.fleetfeetchicago.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  Jerry on Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:28 am

@Nick Morris wrote:
@mul21 wrote:
@Mike MacLellan wrote:Can I stir the pot just a little? Remember, I'm just asking for the sake of questioning established thought patterns/norms.

What is inherently wrong with doping?

Um, really? I'm surprised by this, even from you. Pretty simply, it's cheating. It creates a playing field that is not level for all involved.

Here we go with the whole conversation about eating specific foods, taking legal nutritional supplements, and drinking caffeine as performance enhancers...



Hey, don't accuse diet coke. lol!
avatar
Jerry
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 2712
Points : 1004439
Join date : 2011-06-15
Location : Where I'm Loved

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  Mark B on Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:46 am

@Mike MacLellan wrote:Can I stir the pot just a little? Remember, I'm just asking for the sake of questioning established thought patterns/norms.

What is inherently wrong with doping?

Aside from the question of cheating, there's the point to which Dave alluded when he talked about somebody dropping dead from sludgy blood. A quick search for EPO side effects brought up this journal article that shows some significant long-term problems associated with the drug's use. Including sudden death.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/5v2k60725617x316/

Yes, it improves performance, but it puts the athlete's health at risk. What's inherently wrong? It's dangerous. The short-term gain isn't worth the long-term pain.
avatar
Mark B
Needs A Life
Needs A Life

Posts : 7447
Points : 16284
Join date : 2011-06-15
Age : 54
Location : Vancouver, Wash.

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  ssilvert on Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:49 pm

@Dave-O wrote:
@Mike MacLellan wrote:Can I stir the pot just a little? Remember, I'm just asking for the sake of questioning established thought patterns/norms.

What is inherently wrong with doping?

Not much to add to Matt's answer, but as a follow-up, aren't there body building circuits for clean vs. supplements? Maybe we can do something like that for running, have clean races, where entering such a race on a banned substance is punishable with criminal charges (to ensure no one is tempted). And then a doped circuit where the runners can take whatever the hell they want.
Criminal charges? How would that be possible, counselor? If there is a doped circuit then that implies that the dopers are doing something that is perfectly legal. Wouldn't a doper on the "clean" circuit be committing, at most, a civil offense? How would you get a criminal conviction out of it without changes in the law?

Stan
avatar
ssilvert
Poster
Poster

Posts : 173
Points : 2763
Join date : 2011-08-12
Age : 50
Location : Atlanta

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  ssilvert on Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:56 pm

Overall, my position is that I'd never want to use PEDs. I can see how someone who makes their living from running could be tempted. But life is too short to spend your time cheating. So you won $1000 at a road race. It's not a lot of money and nobody really cares.

Running is a purely selfish and self-satisfying sport. 99.999% of us run for our own personal glory that nobody else shares. Why tarnish your own self-worth by cheating?

Stan
avatar
ssilvert
Poster
Poster

Posts : 173
Points : 2763
Join date : 2011-08-12
Age : 50
Location : Atlanta

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  Jerry on Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:02 pm

@ssilvert wrote:

99.999% of us run for our own personal glory that nobody else shares.

Stan

Time to test if our loved ones know our PR again?

lol!
avatar
Jerry
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 2712
Points : 1004439
Join date : 2011-06-15
Location : Where I'm Loved

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  mul21 on Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:14 pm

@ssilvert wrote:
@Dave-O wrote:
@Mike MacLellan wrote:Can I stir the pot just a little? Remember, I'm just asking for the sake of questioning established thought patterns/norms.

What is inherently wrong with doping?

Not much to add to Matt's answer, but as a follow-up, aren't there body building circuits for clean vs. supplements? Maybe we can do something like that for running, have clean races, where entering such a race on a banned substance is punishable with criminal charges (to ensure no one is tempted). And then a doped circuit where the runners can take whatever the hell they want.
Criminal charges? How would that be possible, counselor? If there is a doped circuit then that implies that the dopers are doing something that is perfectly legal. Wouldn't a doper on the "clean" circuit be committing, at most, a civil offense? How would you get a criminal conviction out of it without changes in the law?

Stan

I'd bet you would be able to get them for fraud if they signed a contract to be clean and then won while not clean. And I'm sure breach of contract would be even easier, but that's not a criminal charge.
avatar
mul21
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 1481
Points : 4846
Join date : 2011-06-15
Age : 42
Location : St. Louis

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  dot520 on Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:17 pm

@Jerry wrote:


Time to test if our loved ones know our PR again?

lol!

That is so funny, Jerry....I was just discussing that thread the other night.
avatar
dot520
Top 10 Poster Emeritus
Top 10 Poster Emeritus

Posts : 780
Points : 3843
Join date : 2011-06-15
Age : 61
Location : Indy-sporting the cape of awesomeness

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  Mike MacLellan on Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:38 pm

I promise I wasn't just being a shit. I know, I'm the one who always throws in the odd-ball opinion, but I did kind of have a reason to ask. So I'll try to address each of these with legitimate responses and not just nit-picking annoyances.

@mul21 wrote:
Um, really? I'm surprised by this, even from you. Pretty simply, it's cheating. It creates a playing field that is not level for all involved.

Two questions:
1. Don't genetics drastically alter the playing field from the get-go? After all, genetics are the ultimate determiner of how far you can go.
2. Does the level playing field benefit you as the runner who, theoretically, is also racing for the prize money? Or you as the spectator who wants a clean fight?

@Mr MattM wrote:
Where it starts to get really socially impacting and morally corrupt is the point where young athletes feel pressured into taking PEDs in order to pursue the sport that they love. How young is 'too young' to start doping? Even with steroids and EPO being illegal and banned in most professional sports they are still believed to be used by many at the high school level in the more competitive systems... those that are big feeders into college sports.

I actually really like this argument, and let's be honest, usually we butt heads. I'm stretching a bit with this argument, and this leads into Dave's idea, but let's make a parallel to alcohol use. Alcohol use is widely accepted and expected as part of the culture of college socialization. Still, you're going to find a lot of pockets of kids who don't drink. At all. They're not necessarily "against" it, but they just prefer to hang out sober. Granted, there's not as much at stake, financially, with socializing as there is with high school ---> college ---> pro sports. But do we see this as a possibility that some people will "take the higher road?" Is there something to be said for the culture the child is raised in and the values instilled by his/her parents?

@Chris M wrote:Against the rules of the sport and therefore worth policing, particularly because of the impact on youth and low income athletes (PEDs are EXPENSIVE) if there is no level playing field? Yes.

I think your points regarding altitude training are effective. Sure, EPO works differently, but it's still performance-enhancing. And as Nick mentioned, so is caffeine. This is proven (citation needed, Google it!). Here's my question for you: do you really think that low-income athletes are depending on race winnings for their livelihood? I admit to not being as in-the-know regarding the money involved in running as I am with other sports, but doesn't sponsorship still play a MUCH larger role than winnings?

@Dave-O wrote:
On a more serious notes, I don't ever want to have to tell my kids (ya know, if I ever have one) that to play football he has to start HGH or steroids in high school. Or if she wants to run that she needs to start cycles of EPO every offseason. That's what legalizing everything would result in.

I direct you to my comments about Matt's argument. Is this really such a fine line that once we cross it there's no going back?

@Mark B wrote:
Yes, it improves performance, but it puts the athlete's health at risk. What's inherently wrong? It's dangerous. The short-term gain isn't worth the long-term pain.

Sky-diving is dangerous. Driving a car is dangerous. Hell, running in an urban area is exposing your body to poisonous chemicals. Yes, I'm being a shit. But my underlying point is: is it not ultimately up to the athlete, and therefore their responsibility, if they want to engage in something dangerous?

@ssilvert wrote:Overall, my position is that I'd never want to use PEDs. I can see how someone who makes their living from running could be tempted. But life is too short to spend your time cheating. So you won $1000 at a road race. It's not a lot of money and nobody really cares.
Running is a purely selfish and self-satisfying sport. 99.999% of us run for our own personal glory that nobody else shares. Why tarnish your own self-worth by cheating?

I read a few contradictions in here. "Nobody really cares." But we do. We, as spectators, care. Other racers probably care.
If running is purely selfish and self-satisfying, what's wrong with seeing how far you can push your body, regardless of what it takes to do so? Don't you have some small curiosity about just how far you can push yourself? Physiologically, your brain is going to stop your body before your muscles do. Would you consider taking something that would cause that mental barrier to move over just a smidgen? Doesn't that happen naturally to runners during 100-milers? Or even marathons?
avatar
Mike MacLellan
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 3153
Points : 7849
Join date : 2011-06-14
Age : 31
Location : Arlington, VA

View user profile http://www.facebook.com/mike.a.maclellan

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  Dave-O on Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:46 pm

@ssilvert wrote:
@Dave-O wrote:
@Mike MacLellan wrote:Can I stir the pot just a little? Remember, I'm just asking for the sake of questioning established thought patterns/norms.

What is inherently wrong with doping?

Not much to add to Matt's answer, but as a follow-up, aren't there body building circuits for clean vs. supplements? Maybe we can do something like that for running, have clean races, where entering such a race on a banned substance is punishable with criminal charges (to ensure no one is tempted). And then a doped circuit where the runners can take whatever the hell they want.
Criminal charges? How would that be possible, counselor? If there is a doped circuit then that implies that the dopers are doing something that is perfectly legal. Wouldn't a doper on the "clean" circuit be committing, at most, a civil offense? How would you get a criminal conviction out of it without changes in the law?

Stan

Off the top of my head, criminal fraud and a form of theft. For fraud, make them sign an affirmative statement that they are not doped and that the race directors are relying on that statement to allow entry into the race. For theft/criminal conversion, any doper in the clean race would be unlawfully taking possession of prize money.

With no experience in the criminal sector, I believe both those charges would stick. Now, getting the AG to prosecute those cases is another story.
avatar
Dave-O
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1736
Points : 4701
Join date : 2011-06-14
Age : 36
Location : Chicago

View user profile http://www.fleetfeetchicago.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  Mark B on Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:54 pm

@Mike MacLellan wrote:Sky-diving is dangerous. Driving a car is dangerous. Hell, running in an urban area is exposing your body to poisonous chemicals. Yes, I'm being a shit. But my underlying point is: is it not ultimately up to the athlete, and therefore their responsibility, if they want to engage in something dangerous

Well, of course. We're all ultimately responsible for our own actions. So if you wanted to load up on EPO while parachuting out of your car by yourself over a dense urban area, go for it. What a Face
avatar
Mark B
Needs A Life
Needs A Life

Posts : 7447
Points : 16284
Join date : 2011-06-15
Age : 54
Location : Vancouver, Wash.

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  Dave-O on Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:55 pm

@Mike MacLellan wrote:

@Mr MattM wrote:
Where it starts to get really socially impacting and morally corrupt is the point where young athletes feel pressured into taking PEDs in order to pursue the sport that they love. How young is 'too young' to start doping? Even with steroids and EPO being illegal and banned in most professional sports they are still believed to be used by many at the high school level in the more competitive systems... those that are big feeders into college sports.

I actually really like this argument, and let's be honest, usually we butt heads. I'm stretching a bit with this argument, and this leads into Dave's idea, but let's make a parallel to alcohol use. Alcohol use is widely accepted and expected as part of the culture of college socialization. Still, you're going to find a lot of pockets of kids who don't drink. At all. They're not necessarily "against" it, but they just prefer to hang out sober. Granted, there's not as much at stake, financially, with socializing as there is with high school ---> college ---> pro sports. But do we see this as a possibility that some people will "take the higher road?" Is there something to be said for the culture the child is raised in and the values instilled by his/her parents?

Your analogy fails, though, because alcohol isn't performance enhancing. If it was, and those who imbibed saw an increase in intelligence and test scores, ultimately (though it would take a few years), only those who drank alcohol would be able to get into the best colleges, and post-graduate programs, etc.

That's the problem with PEDs: It takes the autonomy away from those who (a) wish to be clean and (b) have the natural talent to otherwise be one of the best in the world in the sport.

When I think to the steroid era in baseball, what bothers me isn't the juicers, but rather, the clean players who couldn't make it out of the minor league because they chose not to take PEDs. That sickens me.
avatar
Dave-O
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1736
Points : 4701
Join date : 2011-06-14
Age : 36
Location : Chicago

View user profile http://www.fleetfeetchicago.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Christian Hesch

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum