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Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

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Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  Admin on Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:52 pm

Here is an example of what a self-centered and ill-mannered ass Hal really is... did he really need to reply? Really?

Martin VW's final blog post

Given how much time and thoughtful contribution Martin put into Hal's site I find it offensive that instead of thanking him, Hal basically said 'good riddance'. Of course, that has always been his attitude when people leave. Major league jackass in my book.

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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  Tom H on Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:58 pm

Wow. Not replying at all would have been better than that.
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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  John Kilpatrick on Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:08 am

Good Lord - that was rough. I don't pretend to understand the history there, but that isn't right....

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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  Kenny B. on Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:41 am

Not sure myself the history between Martin and Hal. From what I know Martin has been pretty loyal to Hal forum and maybe this loyalty came with some expectation that Hal would reciprocate by affirming Martins, training and racing or at least acknowledging it. Certainly could understand Martins disappointment but we don't know Hals M.O. unless we asks him. Until then it is just speculation and perception...... Although Hal did respond with "Goodbye Martin". Which would be hurtful to me.
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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  Dave Bussard on Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:51 am

Don't know Martin, only somewhat know Hal. But both sound kinda childish. Why is Martin looking for an 'attaboy' from Hal? And then upset enough to drop his blog when he doesn't get one? Hal's response sounds typical.

Saying nothing on both sides would have been the grownup thing to do...
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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  Dave-O on Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:29 am

For whatever reason, Hal never valued having regular, long-time commentors. He chased away more talented and knowledgeable runners than he'll realize. I have no hard feelings; its his business to run after all. I do wonder, though, if he'll ever realize how much more it could have been.
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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  mountandog on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:05 am

words online can often be misconstrued. Not saying that's the case here, but I've had more arguments through the typewritten word than in conversing with people. Feelings don't necessarily translate well.
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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  fostever on Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:46 pm

I look at Hal's programs and online advice as being geared to first time or more novice marathoners and then taking them into little more advanced stages with intermediate and advanced. I think when people go beyond his mileage and training limits he'd rather they go elsewhere than to trump his advice and cause the more novice runners to burned out or get injured. As far as VW is concerned, yeah, might have added a bit more of an acknowledgement, oops.


Last edited by fostever on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:51 pm

Trying to give Hal the benefit of the doubt since he is 80+ yrs old, right?? He probably doesn't construe or understand his underlying tone, but Martin should really get that by now. Sorry VW, I for one will miss your blog entries as following your Boston training this Spring was fun (yes, I was lurking). It was great to meet him before Boston, and I hope he continues to run and stops by once in a while.
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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  jon c on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:12 pm

Don't know either one personally other than conversing here with Martin a couple times, but in my experience a person who is hoping for or seeking acknowledgement or appreciation (even if well deserved) is simply setting themselves up for disappointment. Unfortunate but often times true.

I know there are times that I have missed opportunities to acknowledge or thank someone like I should have. And I have been disappointed on the other end as well. So I try to do the best I can without any expectation of either one. That makes it more of a treat when it does happen.
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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  Admin on Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:13 pm

I really was just irritated (again) that Hal brushed aside the value of one of his supporters, particularly one that continued to support his site after most of us left. That said, Hal can do what he wants. I just think less of him as a person.

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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  Jeff F on Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:59 pm

I originally decided against posting anything but changed my mind. This is very sad. I believe a lot of us learned quite a bit from Hal and through the old v-team, which if I am correct, Hal was the person who created the environment for that to occur. Hal either lost touch with his customer base and the new medium of social networking, or he deliberately narrowed down his target audience for some reason (winding down his career, the volume or content of the discussions were beyond what he wanted to commit, or whatever). Either reason it is very sad.

I hope we all learn something from this...
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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  Michael Mitchell on Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:32 pm

There has to be a plausible explanation. There just has to be. I know that in email's, words can sound a lot more harsh than in person. I am sure hoping that is the case here.
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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  Bob on Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:31 pm

@Michele "1L" Keane wrote:Trying to give Hal the benefit of the doubt since he is 80+ yrs old, right?? He probably doesn't construe or understand his underlying tone, but Martin should really get that by now.



+1.

Hal hasn't always done things the way I would want, but he's given way more to me then I'll ever ask back. And besides, I doubt he ever read anyone's blogs. I know I still rarely have the time to keep up with everyone's, so maybe, just maybe, that was a small part of it.
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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  John Kilpatrick on Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:44 pm

I don't know if Martin will ever be around anymore, but if you are and read this - I can only speak for myself, but you are always welcome here - hope we hear more from you - you've got a lot of good stuff to share. I also respect your opinion regarding marathons, but I hope you keep running, as talented as you are... For what it is worth, my guess is that you helped a lot of people over there too and I'm sure they appreciated it!

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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  ssilvert on Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:00 am

I don't get what Martin was upset about. Hal hardly ever reads blogs and I don't remember him ever giving attaboys to anyone.

On the other hand, I don't get Hal's reaction either.

I think we are missing some context here.

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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  Randy E on Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:34 am

OK, so this made me go and read what happened on Hal's TP site. I've been around a few years and will keep my personal issues with Martin out of this post.
But, I was really surprised at what all the noise is about Hal. Martin basically knocked the crap out of Hal with his goodbye, which is in his character. Hal, did not respond in a disrespectful way at all. He just said, goodbye. Jeez, give me a break. I guess Martin want a huge pat on the back and did not get it and his feelings were hurt.
Grow up!
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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  Admin on Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:13 am

As for wanting a pat on the back, when you are a active member on Hal's site it is nice to see that he follows some of your activities. For instance, if you look in the Going Places forum you will find Martin's Boston RR at the top and then some number of posts down you'll see Martin's 10k RR (which he won). Hal commented on neither, but managed to comment on every post in between.

As for Hal not reading blogs, that's not true. In fact, Hal obviously read Martin's blog because he replied to it. The "bigger thing" would have been for Hal to let the blog end where Martin left it. Clearly Martin was not going to take Hal's post as a friendly goodbye, and it served no purpose other than to let Martin know that Hal had read his post. That's a dick move, in my opinion.

The back story here is that Martin has on several occassions tried to get Hal to recognize the wants of the forum members, and Hal doesn't like suggestions that conflict with his opinion. Hal wrote off Martin a while ago, and that final goodbye was as good as an 'F You'.

As for Hal being 80 years old and getting a pass... nah, he of all people understands words and their implied meaning. My opinion, the man makes money off newer runners that he actually cares nothing at all about, other than to get their money and adulation. As someone else noted, once a runner gets a certain amount of experience/knowledge he'd just as soon not have them around to challenge him.

I find it sad that he's driven off so many people from his site, but it is his business and he can do with it what he wants. However, I also have the right to feel the way I do about Hal and his destruction of what was the V-Team. He courted the V-Team and promoted it when it served his purpose, and destroyed it once he discovered new ways of mass communication (twitter and facebook). He has never cared about those who supported him. History is clear on that point. For those who don't feel as I do, that's ok. I've no problem with anyone continuing to support/promote/defend Hal.

And Randy, I think you brought your issues into your post just by saying that you were not going to. That's a classic passive/aggressive comment designed to let everyone know you have a negative opinion of Martin without context, then you go on to attack him needlessly. Are you sure you should be throwing stones?

We all have a right to our feelings, whether others understand them or not. We all have a right to our opinions, whether others agree or not.

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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  Randy E on Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:22 am

Actually Matt,
You brought this garbage to this site and it's funny that you side with MVW. And you are right, we all do have a right to our opinions. My personal opinion is, I do not like MVW mainly because of how he treated me and other people. I'm certainly not going to trudge up the whole past, but, just sharing my opinion, which you should respect.
MVW's dig at Hal was typical MVW, cowardly. Hal could have said so much more but did not. I really don't care if you like my opinion or not.
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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  Admin on Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:51 am

@Randy E wrote:Actually Matt,
...My personal opinion is, I do not like MVW mainly because of how he treated me and other people.

Which is exactly my issue with Hal...

Listen, this post wasn't about Martin. The post was about the continuing destruction of the old forums, which Hal seems to care very little about now that he has 'followers' on other social networks. If you (or others) want to use it as a venue for criticizing Martin, have at it. Just like Hal, some people appreciate Martin and some don't.

While we may disagree, we should remain somewhat respectful of each other. Admonishing someone to 'grow up' is right at that line of being disrespectful of a fellow forum member. I can't speak for Martin, but I took his post as an expression of disappointment with Hal, which I can understand. I am disappointed in him, too.

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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  Kenny B. on Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:48 pm

Randy and Matt your TEAM365 Athletes I can't have you two beating one another up. I need you healthy for your next race!


With love!
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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  Admin on Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:50 pm

@Kenny B. wrote:Randy and Matt your TEAM365 Athletes I can't have you two beating one another up. I need you healthy for your next race!


With love!

DAMN! I need to race again sometime, don't I? Shocked

And just for you, Kenny, I promise not to hobble Randy with an iron pipe to the knees, ok? affraid

Actually, I've no problem with Randy. I don't expect to agree with everyone... or everyone to agree with me.

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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  Martin VW on Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:33 pm

Surprise! I have something to say. Smile Read it, don’t read it, in the long run it doesn’t matter to me. I’m months away from being a ‘fitness runner' again.

Obviously, this thread ended up becoming a referendum on my character. Except, I choose to see it really as a referendum on these Forums, and the people that consider themselves a part of it. I’m just today’s lightning rod. Tomorrow, it’ll be someone else.

Most of you don’t know what I do professionally. I’ve never talked about it, much. No reason to, it has nothing to do with running. But, it’s relevant to this thread. Over the last 35 years, I learned a lot of hard lessons. I didn’t sleep my way to the top. Those that have been in a position where they are expected to judge me know that my personal strengths are thinking on my feet and reading a room, knowing instinctively what my options are, the risks involved, and understanding the impact they each are likely to have. All in the course of the few seconds I have before I am expected to respond. These days, I'm usually the "low person" in the room, and influencing from that position is, well, tricky.

Suffice to say, what I posted in signing off of my blog was calculated and deliberate. Things are different than when you all left, and IMO not for the better. Hal knows what I was referring to, and the role that he personally played. He’s a lot more in touch than some of you have stated. His consistent snubs over the course of months were the equivalent of a virtual "cold shoulder." He ground his heel, repeatedly, in the contributions I tried to make, despite being to the benefit of his customers and potential customers. But, he couldn't help himself. His last comment showed HIS character, and was at the heart of the reason I said what I said. But, I give him credit, he could have deleted it, and my comments, if not my blogs entirely. Maybe he still will.

Some of you have judged my response as an immature, knee jerk reaction. Worse, you see fit to call me out for it, and don’t see that as inappropriate, even though I didn't say anything here. As the Robin Williams character in Good Will Hunting said, “You presume to know everything about me because you saw a painting of mine.”

Even though I never transitioned to 365, amazingly, it isn’t the first time this has happened. And that, IMO, is something that’s "wrong" with the 365 Boards that prevents me from having any interest in joining the community. Left unchecked, it has the potential to stunt the Forum’s ability to grow.

Remove me personally from the equation - did the negative statements have to be made? Was the topic furthered by them? Were the forums themselves enhanced, or hurt? Wouldn’t we all have benefitted by first doing a little research (as Matt did), inviting me to weigh in, or asking some open ended questions to bring more facts to bear? Wouldn’t we have been able to then form opinions with a stronger basis in fact?

There’s a huge difference between “liking” and “respecting” someone. Nobody has received more sharp words from me than Matt, and vice versa. Are we “friends?” No, but we conduct ourselves in a “friendly” way, despite our past differences. I respect both his contributions and his ability. In fact, I thought a LOT about him - specifically him - two weeks ago as I prepped mentally for Boston. He went out and accomplished what he set out to do in Chicago 2010 when I could not. That told me a lot about the strength and depth of his “character” that I didn’t learn from my disagreements with him on HH’s Boards. His views (among others) shaped my training for Boston, and I remained optimistic – maybe determined is a better word – that the race not be a total loss, because of what I learned. If I find occasional fault – privately – with anything Matt does, I keep it out of these Forums, because it would be disruptive and destructive to the culture that you all have come to enjoy, and therefore it wasn’t my “place.”

Did those that posted yesterday and today show a similar level of “respect” – not for me, but for these Boards? If not, why not?

Most of the people that posted negative comments have had disagreements with me in the past. They can say they checked their baggage, but they didn’t. Others behaved consistently with my personal observations. In calling me “childish,” in questioning my ability to read people, in labeling my actions as “cowardly” (!), did you reveal something about your own immaturity, your own ability to read people, your own cowardice? Am I the one that needs to “grow up?” Really?
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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  Diego on Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:42 pm

Hey MVW, I am sorry we didn't get a chance to meet again at Boston. We share similar parenting stories. I wish you the best. Maybe we will get another chance to at least share a beer. I think my son may be a defenseman, if he sticks with hockey.

Running is difficult enough without bringing in conflicts to forums that indict character. I'd rather focus on the (+)'s.

I supported Hal's Forums back in 1998-2002 when they were the "Virtual Forum" and tried to answer as many medical questions as I could. I was a new marathoner and had some expertise in that area and wanted to help out. It was a lot of fun. I was sorry to see that forum leave. I'll never forget some guy(sic) named G$ running over 100 miles per week. I couldn't even fathom that kind of mileage, and yet that mileage 7 years later helped me set a PR that makes me proud to this day.

Someone made the comment that Hal's "running" forum was really for newbie runners and I agree with that. After a couple of marathons, it became pretty obvious that the best advice came from fellow V-teamers. That's ok. That's no different than RWOL forums. As we mature as runners, we become more self sufficient and the number of questions decrease. Gosh, even Kenny's running questions have diminished in frequency. Smile

The new TP Forum gave me another chance to make friendships. I am saddened that many of these are/were virtual friendships instead of face to face friendships and hope I get a chance to meet more of you. I have been inspired by so many of you.

I still owe Chris M a beer that, with interest , is now probably a keg. If I can somehow re-qualify for Boston before fall, I'm more than happy to buy a round to cement some new friendships.



And ssshhhhh, don't tell Matt M. that he's mellowing with age ever since he broke 3hrs.
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Re: Read Martin VW's final blog post, and Hal's reply

Post  Dave-O on Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:02 pm

@Diego wrote:
After a couple of marathons, it became pretty obvious that the best advice came from fellow V-teamers. That's ok.

I honestly don't think this was okay for Hal.

The best - and by best I mean thorough, reasoned, experienced, and well-rounded - advice came from the commentors. If a newbie popped in and asked, "why should I run my long runs slower than goal pace," here's how the thread likely evolved:

- Hal would say because that's what he tells you to do and that his program has worked for hundreds of thousands of runners, with no further explanation
- Someone else would come in and explain the injury risk associated with hammering long runs
- Someone else would list the physiological benefits to running at a given pace, including fat utilization
- Then, that post would be supported by a HR expert explaining why running in the right "zone" is appropriate
- I'm sure there'd be posts about periodically including a fast-finish long run at goal pace to simulate running on fatigued legs
- There'd also be someone explaining proper recovery in order to hit your paces for subsequent workouts
- Or how keeping paces slower helps one increase volume

- And if the original poster had follow-up questions, it would be the commentors, not Hal that clarified and offered advice tailored to the individual.

Now, how does that make Hal look? Would that thread ever persuade a reader to pay for Hal's programs and daily emails?
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