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Closer to the Edge

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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Dave-O on Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:10 pm

I'm tempted to stay quiet and let you guys continue your debate. Cool

@Mike MacLellan wrote:Just to get this straight, by "tempo," you don't mean LT, right? You mean at-or-slightly-faster-than-MP? Or at your level, are those pretty much the same thing (LT&MP-20)?

Let's see how to best answer this: Pacewise, it will be slightly faster than MP, about 5-10 second at best. Some days it may be slower if I'm fatigued. So in that sense, no, these aren't done at my lactic threshold. They are, however, sufficiently close enough to still obtain a lactic benefit. At those paces, my body will be producing enough lactic acid to require my body to "clear" it out of my muscles.

@Seth Harrison wrote:

I was wondering the same thing. Where does your tempo pace fall vis-a-vis your MP pace, and is the tempo pace different for the 10 mile tempo run as compared to a shorter tempo run?

Yes. A shorter tempo run will fit into the "1 hour pace" range, which is right neat the actual threshold. That's the pace I'll be aiming for on my 4-6 mile tempos. These longer ones, while still providing an LT benefit, are geared more towards running economy at goal pace.

@GregC wrote:

I'm not sure if Dave follows Jack Daniels exactly, but I'm sure his pace would follow these charts pretty closely. First you determine your VDOT (Page 2 of the linked article) and then you figure out what your tempo pace would be based on the chart on page 3 of the linked article.

That chart helps. So with a vDot of about 66, my pace for a 55:00 tempo should be in the 5:35-5:45 range. Perfect.

Mr MattM wrote:Typically somewhere between 15k and half-marathon pace, yes?

Actual lactic threshold? Absolutely. And I plan to log plenty of those runs as well. Best case scenario:

Mon: 6 mile tempo at 15k-HM pace
Tues: long
Wed: easy
Thurs: 10 mile tempo at MP -5
Fri: easy
Sat: long
Sun: easy

It looks so simple, right? tongue

@mul21 wrote:

I'm relatively certain Dave is loosely referring to these as tempos. I'm betting, based on the "economy of running at MP" comment that these are going to be glorified MP runs, which for most of us are much further than 20 seconds off of our true LT pace. I'd guess these runs he'll be doing are basically his mid-week long run with a 2 mile warm up and cool down and 10 miles in the middle somewhere in that MP to MP-10 seconds range. Plus, the fact that all of the tempos he has Chris and I doing are no more than 10 miles total with 6 at tempo pace, I'm thinking that I'm pretty close on my guess here.

Someone has been tainted by listening to my preaching.

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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Mike MacLellan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:54 pm

Got it. I had a feeling that when you get to those kinds of paces, LT and MP are much closer together than they are for us mere mortals. Thanks for the clarification!
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Schuey on Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:59 pm

Well I know others contribute but thanks for the explanation of the 10 mile Tempo run pace. So to follow up a little on what Jim was say. On these runs you plan to do 2 miles to warm-up-10 miles MP-5-10secs and then a 1 to 2 mile cool down for a total run of 13 to 14 miles?

Also you stated that even though you would be doing these runs slower then LT pace you feel that you would still be getting the LT benefit from these runs. So just curious so do believe that it is the distance that you are covering at a pace 5-10seconds faster then MP that are going to put you on the edge of that lactic build-up compared to when we do the short tempos were you have to run at 15k-HMP to get to that edge of lactic build-up?

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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Diego on Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:46 pm

@GregC wrote:Yes. Yes. Yes, Dave. I think this is exactly what you need to do to get your next level. Big mileage, with the focus on longer tempo runs. As a matter of fact, if you didn't log a single sub 5:30 mile this summer (outside of races), I think 2:30 is in the bag. I know you're not ready to go there, but I think you're on the right track...and I think you get my point anyway. Don't trash your legs with the killer interval workouts, do some moderately tough (and mentally tough) long tempo runs, and get the miles in. I think that's your recipe for success at this point.

You mean he shouldn't also run 3 times a day? That's what real runners like Matt M do, isn't it? Shoot, you could easily get that mileage up to 130-140 miles with some morning runs. affraid
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Dave-O on Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:29 pm

@Schuey wrote:Well I know others contribute but thanks for the explanation of the 10 mile Tempo run pace. So to follow up a little on what Jim was say. On these runs you plan to do 2 miles to warm-up-10 miles MP-5-10secs and then a 1 to 2 mile cool down for a total run of 13 to 14 miles?

Yes, that's the plan.

@Schuey wrote:

Also you stated that even though you would be doing these runs slower then LT pace you feel that you would still be getting the LT benefit from these runs. So just curious so do believe that it is the distance that you are covering at a pace 5-10seconds faster then MP that are going to put you on the edge of that lactic build-up compared to when we do the short tempos were you have to run at 15k-HMP to get to that edge of lactic build-up?


Well, I think we need to clearly define some terms here. "Lactate threshold" is the actually point where your body is producing more lactic acid than your muscles can process. So that's an exact point, and can actually be measured in a lab setting. The best way to improve your bodies ability to process lactic acid is to train as close to that point as possible. In non-scientific purposes, that's around 15k to HM pace - or 1 hour race pace.

But your body produces, and clears, lactic acid at speed slower than your actual threshold. So even though I may be running 15-20 seconds per mile slower than the threshold point, my muscles are still becoming better at processing lactic acid. I don't think I'll ever be at the edge of that threshold, and thus the benefit won't be as great as at 15k-HM pace, but its still some benefit.

At the same time, I'm also teaching my muscles to be more efficient at my goal race pace. So in other words, I'm knocking out two bird with one stone.

jimd wrote:

You mean he shouldn't also run 3 times a day? That's what real runners like Matt M do, isn't it? Shoot, you could easily get that mileage up to 130-140 miles with some morning runs. affraid

Let's just say I haven't eliminated the possibility of a 140.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Schuey on Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:36 pm

Thanks for the reply you answered the question and yes my wording to define the Lactic edge wasn't very good. I should have said what you did teaching the body how to clear the the lactic that is building up because clear that is what the point of doing the LT workouts is so that we can then in return hold a certain pace for longer periods of time.

Oh and please do me a favor don't run 140 miles I really don't think I can run 140.5 to say I ran more miles then you in a week. affraid
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Dave-O on Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:43 pm

@Schuey wrote:
Oh and please do me a favor don't run 140 miles I really don't think I can run 140.5 to say I ran more miles then you in a week. affraid

Don't think for a second that I don't have at least 134 in my sights. I guess its the Catholic League competitiveness showing through...
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  GregC on Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:49 pm

@Dave-O wrote:
Well, I think we need to clearly define some terms here. "Lactate threshold" is the actually point where your body is producing more lactic acid than your muscles can process. So that's an exact point, and can actually be measured in a lab setting. The best way to improve your bodies ability to process lactic acid is to train as close to that point as possible. In non-scientific purposes, that's around 15k to HM pace - or 1 hour race pace.

But your body produces, and clears, lactic acid at speed slower than your actual threshold. So even though I may be running 15-20 seconds per mile slower than the threshold point, my muscles are still becoming better at processing lactic acid. I don't think I'll ever be at the edge of that threshold, and thus the benefit won't be as great as at 15k-HM pace, but its still some benefit.

At the same time, I'm also teaching my muscles to be more efficient at my goal race pace. So in other words, I'm knocking out two bird with one stone.

I think the efficiency thing is a big benefit and one that will be particularly valuable for you. The more you can get that glycogen/fat burning combination tipped toward the fat side at marathon pace, the better off you will be. Not to be harsh, but you have had problems in the last 6 miles of races, and the issue isn't with your fitness. You can throw out sub 5:10 miles too easy to think that the issue is aerobic fitness. I think it's purely muscle efficiency at this point and once you get that figured out you'll be a much stronger runner at the end of races because you'll still have glycogen in the tank at mile 20. I'm glad to see you focus on that for a cycle.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  GregC on Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:50 pm

@Dave-O wrote:
@Schuey wrote:
Oh and please do me a favor don't run 140 miles I really don't think I can run 140.5 to say I ran more miles then you in a week. affraid

Don't think for a second that I don't have at least 134 in my sights. I guess its the Catholic League competitiveness showing through...

134 huh?
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Dave-O on Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:10 pm

@GregC wrote:

Not to be harsh, but you have had problems in the last 6 miles of races, and the issue isn't with your fitness. You can throw out sub 5:10 miles too easy to think that the issue is aerobic fitness. I think it's purely muscle efficiency at this point and once you get that figured out you'll be a much stronger runner at the end of races because you'll still have glycogen in the tank at mile 20. I'm glad to see you focus on that for a cycle.

That's not harsh. It's the absolute truth. I've never maintained pace in the last 6-8 miles of a marathon. I've found ways to hang on and not bleed too much time, but I run out of glycogen. I hope you're right that the improved efficiency at marathon pace is the final component to solve that little problem.

And yes, I think Schuey put up 133.5 last spring. Twisted Evil
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Diego on Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:41 am

@Dave-O wrote:
@GregC wrote:

Not to be harsh, but you have had problems in the last 6 miles of races, and the issue isn't with your fitness. You can throw out sub 5:10 miles too easy to think that the issue is aerobic fitness. I think it's purely muscle efficiency at this point and once you get that figured out you'll be a much stronger runner at the end of races because you'll still have glycogen in the tank at mile 20. I'm glad to see you focus on that for a cycle.

That's not harsh. It's the absolute truth. I've never maintained pace in the last 6-8 miles of a marathon. I've found ways to hang on and not bleed too much time, but I run out of glycogen. I hope you're right that the improved efficiency at marathon pace is the final component to solve that little problem.

And yes, I think Schuey put up 133.5 last spring. Twisted Evil

Dave-O,

Have you ever gone back through your races to see how many calories you consumed(between gels and liquids)? On some of the long runs, I think you need to see how many calories you can take in and boost that a bit to get the stomach accustomed to them. Taking a bit of protein(amino acids) may also help because they help the brain tolerate longer duration exercise.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Julie on Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:10 am

I was wondering too how you fuel during a marathon. I can't handle powerade but I eat gummy bears, I know, low-tech fuel but GUs are too much for me to handle but if someone hands jelly beans or orange slices out they help, too. If I feel like I'm fading a little bit of sugar does help me perk up. But I know you're a million times more experienced than I am and either way, I am pretty much in awe of your running.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Dave-O on Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:32 am

jimd wrote:

Dave-O,

Have you ever gone back through your races to see how many calories you consumed(between gels and liquids)? On some of the long runs, I think you need to see how many calories you can take in and boost that a bit to get the stomach accustomed to them. Taking a bit of protein(amino acids) may also help because they help the brain tolerate longer duration exercise.

@Julie wrote:I was wondering too how you fuel during a marathon. I can't handle powerade but I eat gummy bears, I know, low-tech fuel but GUs are too much for me to handle but if someone hands jelly beans or orange slices out they help, too. If I feel like I'm fading a little bit of sugar does help me perk up. But I know you're a million times more experienced than I am and either way, I am pretty much in awe of your running.

I have no problem with gels. I typically take 5-6 in a marathon, and think I took 8 in Napa since I was undertrained. I take Accel Gels since they have a protein component. Do you think I need more protein?
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Schuey on Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:29 am

@Dave-O wrote:I have no problem with gels. I typically take 5-6 in a marathon, and think I took 8 in Napa since I was undertrained. I take Accel Gels since they have a protein component. Do you think I need more protein?

I'm speaking from the hip here Dave, so I would have to do the research or maybe you already have. I wonder how much of a role protein plays during the race. I guess one would think that you would want a mix of carbs/proteins. In my mind I guess I'm thinking the more important thing to have in a gel would be high contents of Sodium, Potassium, magnesium, amino acids (leucine, isoleucine, valine). I have to admit I'm not a gel nerd but I would think that these things would be important.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Jerry on Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:05 am

Oh, here is your next blog title - The Edge of Glory.

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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Diego on Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:21 pm

@Dave-O wrote:
jimd wrote:

Dave-O,

Have you ever gone back through your races to see how many calories you consumed(between gels and liquids)? On some of the long runs, I think you need to see how many calories you can take in and boost that a bit to get the stomach accustomed to them. Taking a bit of protein(amino acids) may also help because they help the brain tolerate longer duration exercise.

@Julie wrote:I was wondering too how you fuel during a marathon. I can't handle powerade but I eat gummy bears, I know, low-tech fuel but GUs are too much for me to handle but if someone hands jelly beans or orange slices out they help, too. If I feel like I'm fading a little bit of sugar does help me perk up. But I know you're a million times more experienced than I am and either way, I am pretty much in awe of your running.

I have no problem with gels. I typically take 5-6 in a marathon, and think I took 8 in Napa since I was undertrained. I take Accel Gels since they have a protein component. Do you think I need more protein?

Amino acids hit the brain and modify the amount of both serotonin and dopamine in the system. These are important in the pleasure center.
If you buy into Noakes' 'central governor' theory, which I do, then I think the consumption of protein just before the race and around mile 16 is important. As an aside, when I ate a lara bar before embarking on a 20 miler, I fared much better and the effort was much easier.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Dave-O on Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:58 pm

@Schuey wrote: I'm speaking from the hip here Dave, so I would have to do the research or maybe you already have. I wonder how much of a role protein plays during the race. I guess one would think that you would want a mix of carbs/proteins. In my mind I guess I'm thinking the more important thing to have in a gel would be high contents of Sodium, Potassium, magnesium, amino acids (leucine, isoleucine, valine). I have to admit I'm not a gel nerd but I would think that these things would be important.
jimd wrote: Amino acids hit the brain and modify the amount of both serotonin and dopamine in the system. These are important in the pleasure center. If you buy into Noakes' 'central governor' theory, which I do, then I think the consumption of protein just before the race and around mile 16 is important. As an aside, when I ate a lara bar before embarking on a 20 miler, I fared much better and the effort was much easier.
How much protein are you guys suggesting? More than what's in an Accel Gel (5 grams) I assume? I can do that before a race, but during a race seems tougher.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Diego on Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:06 pm

@Dave-O wrote:
@Schuey wrote: I'm speaking from the hip here Dave, so I would have to do the research or maybe you already have. I wonder how much of a role protein plays during the race. I guess one would think that you would want a mix of carbs/proteins. In my mind I guess I'm thinking the more important thing to have in a gel would be high contents of Sodium, Potassium, magnesium, amino acids (leucine, isoleucine, valine). I have to admit I'm not a gel nerd but I would think that these things would be important.
jimd wrote: Amino acids hit the brain and modify the amount of both serotonin and dopamine in the system. These are important in the pleasure center. If you buy into Noakes' 'central governor' theory, which I do, then I think the consumption of protein just before the race and around mile 16 is important. As an aside, when I ate a lara bar before embarking on a 20 miler, I fared much better and the effort was much easier.
How much protein are you guys suggesting? More than what's in an Accel Gel (5 grams) I assume? I can do that before a race, but during a race seems tougher.


I'd say about 12-15 grams before the race--about the same as in one of the new carb protein bars. During the race, any of the gels that contain amino acids should be enough. I'd consider taking a gel every mile after 18(at least taste it) to get the brain stimulation that says "Let's rock it baby!"
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Dave-O on Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:16 pm

Chicago Training, Week 1: June 13 – 19[/font]

Monday: 4 miles – untimed. 6 miles – 44:41, 7:27 pace. My goal for this week is simple: Run as many miles as possible over a 7:00 pace. Okay, maybe not every mile will be that slow, but you get my point. Coming off the North Shore Half, this week truly is geared towards recovery. Based on how sore my legs were today, I need it.

Tuesday: 5 miles – 37:12, 7:26 pace. 8 miles – 57:11, 7:09 pace. My body felt no better, if not worse, than it did yesterday. I guess I can take some solace in the fact that I left it all on the course, despite the slower than expected results. That knowledge isn’t making these slow miles any more enjoyable, though.

Wednesday: 5 miles – 37:28, 7:30 pace. 8 miles – 57:13, 7:09 pace I had hoped to put in a longer run tonight after work, perhaps in the 10-14 mile range, but my legs still feel trashed. I know, one day of recovery for each day raced; I can’t expect to be recovered from a half in 3 days. But still, I would like some sign of progress. Or, I could just keep logging 5-8 doubles ‘til I’m blue in the face.

Thursday: 5 miles – 36:47, 7:21 pace. 13 miles – 1:28:31, 6:49 pace. Thursdays will typically be reserved for my 10-mile tempos, but not this week. I’m certainly not recovered enough for a hard effort, despite being anxious to do so. Instead, I put in 13 miles at a 6:50 pace. Still slow, but definitely the best I’ve felt this week. One thing I didn’t miss about summertime running in Chicago: the Lakefront path is a fucking zoo! From Oak Street beach through Fullerton – a stretch of about 2.5 miles for non-Chicagoans – I was dodging tourist, clueless pedestrians, and intramural volleyball teams. Texting and walking should be outlawed.

Friday: 5 miles – 37:24, 7:29 pace. 8 miles – 57:39, 7:12 pace. I’ve said it many times, but the Friday after work easy run is the most tempting of the week to skip. That’s especially true when with plans to go to Michigan City for the weekend as soon as it’s over. I spent the entire 8 miles with my mouth watering just thinking about Shoreline Brewery and its home brewed beers.

Saturday: 5 miles – untimed. 8 miles – 55:53, 6:59 pace. An action packed day: I woke up early and ran 5 easy, untimed miles in the morning; then my Dad and I hit the links, my first time in about 2 years; I succeeded on my goal to break 100, by sinking a 10 foot putt for 99 on 18, and covered the 18 stroke spread against my Dad; I drank about 6 beers in the process; I crashed on the couch for a nice nap afterwards; and then I logged 8 more easy miles. All in all, I gotta say it was a good day.

Sunday: 14 miles – 1:36:55, 6:55 pace. After staying up late drinking good wine and hanging out with my parents, I rolled out of bed a little later than expected. Not that I mind sleeping in, but it meant that it would be warm out for my run. And humid. Accordingly, I was careful to stay as close to 7:00 pace as possible. I started the run with a 5-mile out and back on Lake Shore Drive. The breeze off the lake and water fountains helped me manage the heat, but when I got back to the condo after 10 miles, I downed 20 ounces of Gatorade in about 2 gulps. It definitely helped. I didn’t fade at all in the last 4 miles, and probably could have comfortably put in 2 or 4 more, but hey, this is week 1. Plus, I was ready to get my ass to the beach.

The week went as expected – slow and monotonous. But that’s exactly what I needed. I got my mileage back over 90, pain free, and put the general structure of my weeks in place. Off we go!

Week: 94
YTD: 1,843
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Kenny B. on Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:20 pm

Nice week of running knowing when to pull it back a bit! When doing the heavy mileage you do I got to think this becomes crucial in your training.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  healdgator on Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:53 pm

I see you are blaming the wife (for not running) already. Spoken like a true veteran.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Mike MacLellan on Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:02 pm

More strokes than miles. For shame...
In reality: I know that it's taken a few years for you to get to the point you're at, but I'm still envious/mind-blown that your week 1 is approximately the same mileage as my peak this summer will be.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:18 pm

@Jerry wrote:Oh, here is your next blog title - The Edge of Glory.


Jerry beat me to it, but that is all I think of when I read your blog title.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Julie on Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:14 pm

Glad you're pain free! You were seeing a PT for your hip, weren't you? Are you done with that?

Can't imagine running twice a day but obviously you get great results from it!
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Peg Coover on Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:57 am

@Mike MacLellan wrote:More strokes than miles. For shame...
In reality: I know that it's taken a few years for you to get to the point you're at, but I'm still envious/mind-blown that your week 1 is approximately the same mileage as my peak this summer will be.

Twice as many miles as my peak will be!!

Shocked
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Re: Closer to the Edge

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