Closer to the Edge
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Re: Closer to the Edge
It sounds like even though the run around Lake Geneva was really hard, it was worth the experience, and probably really beautiful. Another impressive week!
Have you made it to Bongo Room yet?
Have you made it to Bongo Room yet?
Penelope- Poster
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Re: Closer to the Edge
So running around the lake, were any people out having breakfast on their decks when you ran across? I've been there and have seen the path but I didn't realize it went all around like that, it sounds pretty cool.
JohnP- Explaining To Spouse
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Re: Closer to the Edge
Sounds like a cool adventure even if it wasn't great for running fast.
Joel H- Regular
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Re: Closer to the Edge
There's no emoticons to express how happy I am that Hendry is gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
mul21- Explaining To Spouse
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Re: Closer to the Edge
Just got to read about your "fun" run about Lake Geneva. I was also wondering if people were out on their decks, yards, property, etc. I have visions of Ferris Bueller running across people's lawns, grabbing a bite to eat (although you obviously didn't) and stopping to chat with cute girls.
Seth Harrison- Regular
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Re: Closer to the Edge
Penelope wrote:It sounds like even though the run around Lake Geneva was really hard, it was worth the experience, and probably really beautiful. Another impressive week!
Have you made it to Bongo Room yet?
It was worth it. Thanks. Nope, no Bongo Room yet. We haven't been home the last few weekends, and our next 4 weekends include 3 weddings and a race in Philly.
JohnP wrote:So running around the lake, were any people out having breakfast on their decks when you ran across? I've been there and have seen the path but I didn't realize it went all around like that, it sounds pretty cool.
No one was on the few decks I actually ran across. But there were lots of people in their yards/decks on lots where the path was closer to the waterfront.
Joel H wrote:Sounds like a cool adventure even if it wasn't great for running fast.
Always good to change things up...helped mentally, too.
Seth Harrison wrote:Just got to read about your "fun" run about Lake Geneva. I was also wondering if people were out on their decks, yards, property, etc. I have visions of Ferris Bueller running across people's lawns, grabbing a bite to eat (although you obviously didn't) and stopping to chat with cute girls.
I almost stopped at a few garden hoses for water. Everyone I encountered was really friendly though.
Re: Closer to the Edge
mul21 wrote:
There's no emoticons to express how happy I am that Hendry is gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree with you - it was time for him to go. We need a new regime to rebuild this puppy from scratch. I do want to keep Tim Wilkens (head of scouting) though. Ricketts said the same today.
But I do think Hendy deserves some credit. Put three teams in the playoffs and assembled the best team in the NL in '08. Not his fault the players shit the bed against the Dodgers and Dbacks. Did he saddle the club with inflated contracts? Absolutely. That's what happens though when you go all-in for a 3 year period and it doesn't pan out. If either of those '07 or '08 teams won the World Series (both had the talent to do so), no one cares about the contracts right now.
Re: Closer to the Edge
Dave-O wrote: Did he saddle the club with inflated contracts? Absolutely. That's what happens though when you go all-in for a 3 year period and it doesn't pan out. If either of those '07 or '08 teams won the World Series (both had the talent to do so), no one cares about the contracts right now.
Yep. He definitely made some mistakes, but he's also getting a lot of undo blame. When he signed Soriano, everyone knew that the last few years of his contract were going to be bad, but if they wanted to sign the top free-agent on the market, that was the price they had to pay. People were saying that at the time, but you couldn't hear them over all the cheering over the signing. If the next GM comes in and hands Pujols a similar contract, he'll be a hero. No one will think about the 6th-8th year on the contract when Pujols will be nearing 40. Having said that, it was time for him to go.
GregC- Poster
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Re: Closer to the Edge
Bummer that Wilco will not being visiting Chicago on their Fall Tour. The closes they come is Indianapolis to kick the tour off 9/13 not even a weekend date and then Madison, Wi again during the week 10/5 right before the marathon. Such a bummer, I have to admit wish the Indianapolis show was a Saturday would have been worth the drive to see them play at Murat Hall, great place to see a show.
Schuey- Explaining To Spouse
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Re: Closer to the Edge
GregC wrote:
Yep. He definitely made some mistakes, but he's also getting a lot of undo blame. When he signed Soriano, everyone knew that the last few years of his contract were going to be bad, but if they wanted to sign the top free-agent on the market, that was the price they had to pay. People were saying that at the time, but you couldn't hear them over all the cheering over the signing. If the next GM comes in and hands Pujols a similar contract, he'll be a hero. No one will think about the 6th-8th year on the contract when Pujols will be nearing 40. Having said that, it was time for him to go.
That's what I don't get: Everyone knew years 6-8 for Soriano weren't going to be good. But someone was giving it to him, so if we wanted him, that's what it took. Like I said, he went all in on the '07-'08 teams and they flopped in the playoffs. I'm fine with bringing in someone new (Andrew Friedman Andrew Friedman Andrew Friedman come on I know you want out of the AL East!) but let's not act like Hendry's teams were terrible for 9 years.
Re: Closer to the Edge
Schuey wrote:Bummer that Wilco will not being visiting Chicago on their Fall Tour. The closes they come is Indianapolis to kick the tour off 9/13 not even a weekend date and then Madison, Wi again during the week 10/5 right before the marathon. Such a bummer, I have to admit wish the Indianapolis show was a Saturday would have been worth the drive to see them play at Murat Hall, great place to see a show.
Bummer, but I bet they play in Chicago sometime this winter. They always have shows here even when they're not touring.
Re: Closer to the Edge
Did you have fun at the Blink-182 concert? I loved seeing how many parents were there with their teens. Including me!
Natalie- Poster
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Re: Closer to the Edge
Natalie wrote:Did you have fun at the Blink-182 concert? I loved seeing how many parents were there with their teens. Including me!
It was faaaaaaantastic! No matter how many times I've seen them live, I always have a blast. Based on my antics afterwards, probably too much fun...
Very cool you got to enjoy it with your kids. I still remember my parents bringing me to an REM show in junior high.
Re: Closer to the Edge
Chicago Training, Week 10: August 15 – 21
Monday: 6 miles – 45:12, 7:32 pace. 12 miles – 1:10:52, with 6 miles – 31:42, 5:17 pace. I have big plans for this week. Everything is aligned properly; low stress work week (knock on wood), favorable weather forecast, and starting the week fresh off of a step-back week. What better way to kick things off with a really strong tempo run with the team. Before we started, I promised myself that I wouldn’t get dropped around mile 3-4 like I usually do with this particular group. Instead, I would push hard to hang with them. Coming off the slower than usual long run, it was the perfect time to do so. The first three miles were fast but controlled – 5:33, 5:15, and 5:28. Then, we hammered. Mile 4 was 5:07. I sensed the pace had picked up, but without checking my watch, didn’t realize how much. This is where I usually fall off the back, but like I said, I pushed today. Mile 5 was 5:04. Now, miles 2 and 5 are a tad short (we use the mile markers on the path and not a Garmin), but still, we were moving. And surprisingly, I was hanging in there without too much of a struggle. We closed with a 5:13, bringing the average pace to 5:17, easily my fastest tempo of the cycle. This week is off to a good start.
Tuesday: 6 miles – untimed. 14 miles – 1:31:40, 6:33 pace. It’s one thing to tell yourself that any given pace will feel easier in cooler temperatures; it’s another to experience it firsthand. Tonight was near perfect running conditions, with a low humidity and dew point, and it resulted in a smooth, comfortable long run. Based on how hard I ran last night, I expected to struggle through this run. To the contrary, the 6:30 pace come more easily than it has all year, and the run flew by. I thought about adding on a few miles, but instead, starting thinking about Thursday night’s tempo run. I figure when I’m planning recovery 48 hours in advance – despite running 38 miles in the first two days this week – things are going well.
Wednesday: 6 miles – 44:54, 7:29 pace. 9 miles – 1:03:26, 7:03 pace. Typically, I feel crappy on my first run of the day and much better by the end of the second easy day. Today was the exact opposite. The evening run home from work couldn’t have ended soon enough. Which means I’ll probably feel like shit tomorrow.
Thursday: 4 miles – untimed. 14 miles – 1:25:44, with 10 miles – 56:50, 5:41 pace. A time crunch in the morning, caused by unexpectedly having to cover a court hearing, cost me two miles. I consoled myself that it was probably for the better, to help better prepare for the evening’s 10 mile tempo. I can’t say it helped much. My legs were feeling less than spry as I started the tempo run. Although my breathing and heart rate were easy and under control, my legs weren’t in the mood to move fast. However, I think that may have been beneficial. I know I can run 10 miles at slightly faster than goal pace on fresh legs. To do the same on trashed legs? Well, that has to be a good sign. Or so I’m telling myself.
Friday: 6 miles – 45:17, 7:33 pace. 8 miles – 57:01, 7:08 pace. I expected to be in dire need of recovery today. I was right in my assumption. The last 4 days were a brutal stretch and it showed today.
Saturday: 5 miles – untimed. 10 miles – 1:10:12, 7:02 pace. I don’t care how hold I am, I will never not be insanely excited for Blink 182. I guess I’m a sucker for pop-punk. I also think I partied a little too hard and paid the price the following day.
Sunday: 20 miles – 2:11:44, 6:35 pace. I can’t recall a more uneventful long run. I never felt particularly good, but I never really struggled. My pace didn’t vary much, so I didn’t run fast or slow. It was a little warm, but overall a pleasant August day. I guess I shouldn’t complain about a 20 miler being so unremarkable.
So instead, let’s summarize where I’m at in training: I’m now through 10 weeks, and since I broke down my training as three 5-week segments (and then a 2-week taper), I consider myself now 66% of the way to Chicago. My average weekly mileage for weeks 6-10 was 109.2, a slight uptick from the 105.2 average for week’s 1-5. I nailed a handful of short and long tempos and tossed in a decent 5k. In all, I’m pleased with where I’m at but understand there’s a lot of work to be done in the last 5 week block.
Week: 120
YTD: 2,821
Monday: 6 miles – 45:12, 7:32 pace. 12 miles – 1:10:52, with 6 miles – 31:42, 5:17 pace. I have big plans for this week. Everything is aligned properly; low stress work week (knock on wood), favorable weather forecast, and starting the week fresh off of a step-back week. What better way to kick things off with a really strong tempo run with the team. Before we started, I promised myself that I wouldn’t get dropped around mile 3-4 like I usually do with this particular group. Instead, I would push hard to hang with them. Coming off the slower than usual long run, it was the perfect time to do so. The first three miles were fast but controlled – 5:33, 5:15, and 5:28. Then, we hammered. Mile 4 was 5:07. I sensed the pace had picked up, but without checking my watch, didn’t realize how much. This is where I usually fall off the back, but like I said, I pushed today. Mile 5 was 5:04. Now, miles 2 and 5 are a tad short (we use the mile markers on the path and not a Garmin), but still, we were moving. And surprisingly, I was hanging in there without too much of a struggle. We closed with a 5:13, bringing the average pace to 5:17, easily my fastest tempo of the cycle. This week is off to a good start.
Tuesday: 6 miles – untimed. 14 miles – 1:31:40, 6:33 pace. It’s one thing to tell yourself that any given pace will feel easier in cooler temperatures; it’s another to experience it firsthand. Tonight was near perfect running conditions, with a low humidity and dew point, and it resulted in a smooth, comfortable long run. Based on how hard I ran last night, I expected to struggle through this run. To the contrary, the 6:30 pace come more easily than it has all year, and the run flew by. I thought about adding on a few miles, but instead, starting thinking about Thursday night’s tempo run. I figure when I’m planning recovery 48 hours in advance – despite running 38 miles in the first two days this week – things are going well.
Wednesday: 6 miles – 44:54, 7:29 pace. 9 miles – 1:03:26, 7:03 pace. Typically, I feel crappy on my first run of the day and much better by the end of the second easy day. Today was the exact opposite. The evening run home from work couldn’t have ended soon enough. Which means I’ll probably feel like shit tomorrow.
Thursday: 4 miles – untimed. 14 miles – 1:25:44, with 10 miles – 56:50, 5:41 pace. A time crunch in the morning, caused by unexpectedly having to cover a court hearing, cost me two miles. I consoled myself that it was probably for the better, to help better prepare for the evening’s 10 mile tempo. I can’t say it helped much. My legs were feeling less than spry as I started the tempo run. Although my breathing and heart rate were easy and under control, my legs weren’t in the mood to move fast. However, I think that may have been beneficial. I know I can run 10 miles at slightly faster than goal pace on fresh legs. To do the same on trashed legs? Well, that has to be a good sign. Or so I’m telling myself.
Friday: 6 miles – 45:17, 7:33 pace. 8 miles – 57:01, 7:08 pace. I expected to be in dire need of recovery today. I was right in my assumption. The last 4 days were a brutal stretch and it showed today.
Saturday: 5 miles – untimed. 10 miles – 1:10:12, 7:02 pace. I don’t care how hold I am, I will never not be insanely excited for Blink 182. I guess I’m a sucker for pop-punk. I also think I partied a little too hard and paid the price the following day.
Sunday: 20 miles – 2:11:44, 6:35 pace. I can’t recall a more uneventful long run. I never felt particularly good, but I never really struggled. My pace didn’t vary much, so I didn’t run fast or slow. It was a little warm, but overall a pleasant August day. I guess I shouldn’t complain about a 20 miler being so unremarkable.
So instead, let’s summarize where I’m at in training: I’m now through 10 weeks, and since I broke down my training as three 5-week segments (and then a 2-week taper), I consider myself now 66% of the way to Chicago. My average weekly mileage for weeks 6-10 was 109.2, a slight uptick from the 105.2 average for week’s 1-5. I nailed a handful of short and long tempos and tossed in a decent 5k. In all, I’m pleased with where I’m at but understand there’s a lot of work to be done in the last 5 week block.
Week: 120
YTD: 2,821
Re: Closer to the Edge
Wow Dave, that is a lot of miles.
Jim Lentz- Explaining To Spouse
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Re: Closer to the Edge
Another impressive week. At 2/3 of the way, sounds like you're right on track. Keep up the impressive miles!
Penelope- Poster
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Re: Closer to the Edge
What a great week of training Dave! Monday's tempo run was most impressive!!!
Seth Harrison- Regular
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Re: Closer to the Edge
Dave - Can't imagine what you're planning for the third block. Great mileage and those paces are just... completely beyond me.
Re: Closer to the Edge
I think it's time to start working on endurance. <sarcasm>
Bob- Lord Bobby
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Re: Closer to the Edge
Kenny B. wrote:120 sounds like some Kenyans weight! Very impressive!
And pretty close to mine (I'm 123 as of last Wednesday). Keep up the great work. I'm so praying for good weather in Chicago as I'm working with a couple of novice marathoners here that are running the race as their first.
Re: Closer to the Edge
Jim Lentz wrote:Wow Dave, that is a lot of miles.
Thanks Jim!
Penelope wrote:Another impressive week. At 2/3 of the way, sounds like you're right on track. Keep up the impressive miles!
This training cycle really has flown by...which I think is a good sign.
Seth Harrison wrote:What a great week of training Dave! Monday's tempo run was most impressive!!!
I paid the price for it later in the week, but it was one of my best tempos.
Kenny B. wrote:120 sounds like some Kenyans weight! Very impressive!
I could lose a leg and still not be close to 120....
Mike MacLellan wrote:Dave - Can't imagine what you're planning for the third block. Great mileage and those paces are just... completely beyond me.
Much of the same, just a tad more fast stuff to prepare for the peak.
Bob wrote:I think it's time to start working on endurance. <sarcasm>
I know, right?
Michele "1L" Keane wrote:
And pretty close to mine (I'm 123 as of last Wednesday). Keep up the great work. I'm so praying for good weather in Chicago as I'm working with a couple of novice marathoners here that are running the race as their first.
I haven't even started thinking about the weather yet...makes me nervous to even consider it yet.
Re: Closer to the Edge
Chicago Training, Week 11: August 22 – 28
Monday: 8 miles – 57:34, 7:12 pace. Though eager to nail the last five weeks of training, I have this one designated as a step-back week. Maybe I’m being overly cautious, but I’m trying to be smart about avoiding burnout. With a full month left still after this week, it seems like a good time to let my body recover.
Tuesday: 5 miles – 37:27, 7:29 pace. 9 miles – 1:02:24, 6:56 pace. And on that note, I started the week with back to back easy days. I can’t say I felt as fresh as I would have hoped – with just 22 miles in the last two days – but that’s usually the case with step back weeks.
Wednesday: 5 miles – 37:16, 7:27 pace. 12 miles – 1:11:06 with 6 x 1 mile. This was the one workout I had scheduled for the week. Considering I punished Chris and Jim with this workout in the last two weeks, it was only fair I did the same to myself. I was disappointed to feel so sluggish warming up. This is a workout I typically enjoy (ok, maybe just the first 4 repeats) but I could tell early on this was going to be a struggle. Though my splits all fell in the acceptable range – 5:15, 5:12, 5:09, 5:10, 5:08, 5:06 – it was a beast of a workout. I really had to dig deep on the last two repeats. And honestly, if my two pupils hadn’t gutted out all 6 before me, I might have bailed after 5.
Thursday: 5 miles – 37:40, 7:32 pace. 5 miles – untimed. Aaaaaaand the wheels officially came off today. The writing has been on the wall all week, with poor recovery runs, fatigue, heavy legs, and restless nights of sleep. I struggled on the morning run, and in the evening, despite leaving my watch in my bag, I threw in the towel after 5 miles. No matter how slow, it was doing more harm than good.
Friday: 6 miles – 43:01, 7:10 pace. With my hopes of 90-100 miles pretty much down the tubes, I went into pure recovery mode: Just one easy run with a set of strides. The previous four days don’t bode well for tomorrow, but I hope today will restore some life to my legs.
Saturday: 12 miles – with DeKalb 10k – 34:41, 5:35 pace, 14th place. The week continues to get worse. Months ago I circled this race as a potential PR attempt (32:34) and a few recent tempo runs confirmed the possibility. As you can see, I wasn’t even close. You know those runs where you struggle to keep moving? The type where you hope to never feel that way when it counts? Yeah, that’s how I felt this morning.
I drove out to DeKalb with Matt Flaherty (i.e. the new fastest lawyer in Chicago) and after a normal warm-up, the race went off with a deep field. My goal for the first mile was to not get caught up in the whirlwind and to run 5:20. I crossed the mat in 5:19. That concludes the good things about the race.
From there it was a downward spiral of atrocious running. The smooth stride, quick turnover and light-on-my-feet feeling I had on last Monday’s tempo was absolutely absent. I felt like I’ve been running 20 miles per week. I couldn’t find any rhythm at all and struggled to keep the pace in the 5:30’s. Honestly, if I hadn’t driven 60 miles to this race, I would have stepped off the course after 3 miles. I felt that bad. I can remember only one other race that turned out so poorly, and that was the March Madness Half-Marathon in 2007. I finished in 34:41, my slowest 10k in over 4 years. Fucking awesome.
On the way to the race, Matt and I were talking about different elite runners. Ryan Hall came up. Ironically, Matt commented that he admires how Hall can run a 1:03:xx tune-up half marathon, not let it affect his confidence in any way, then run a 2:06:xx full marathon not long thereafter. There is something to be said about trusting the process of beating the hell out of your body for months, then tapering and peaking. I know that. It doesn’t make it easy to swallow a performance such as today, especially when my workouts the last month have indicated otherwise, but I can’t put too much in it. Bad races happen. Move on.
Sunday: 14 miles – 1:34:53, 6:47 pace. Since the week has turned out so poorly, I decided to keep my long run to a minimum and to start fresh next week. I didn’t intend to only run 81 miles this week, but perhaps it will be for the better. It puts me in a good position for the last four week of training, which will consist of two more high and hard weeks, a step-back for the Philly Half, and one last normal week of training before taper. I can’t wait for Monday to put this one behind me.
Week: 81
YTD: 2,902
Monday: 8 miles – 57:34, 7:12 pace. Though eager to nail the last five weeks of training, I have this one designated as a step-back week. Maybe I’m being overly cautious, but I’m trying to be smart about avoiding burnout. With a full month left still after this week, it seems like a good time to let my body recover.
Tuesday: 5 miles – 37:27, 7:29 pace. 9 miles – 1:02:24, 6:56 pace. And on that note, I started the week with back to back easy days. I can’t say I felt as fresh as I would have hoped – with just 22 miles in the last two days – but that’s usually the case with step back weeks.
Wednesday: 5 miles – 37:16, 7:27 pace. 12 miles – 1:11:06 with 6 x 1 mile. This was the one workout I had scheduled for the week. Considering I punished Chris and Jim with this workout in the last two weeks, it was only fair I did the same to myself. I was disappointed to feel so sluggish warming up. This is a workout I typically enjoy (ok, maybe just the first 4 repeats) but I could tell early on this was going to be a struggle. Though my splits all fell in the acceptable range – 5:15, 5:12, 5:09, 5:10, 5:08, 5:06 – it was a beast of a workout. I really had to dig deep on the last two repeats. And honestly, if my two pupils hadn’t gutted out all 6 before me, I might have bailed after 5.
Thursday: 5 miles – 37:40, 7:32 pace. 5 miles – untimed. Aaaaaaand the wheels officially came off today. The writing has been on the wall all week, with poor recovery runs, fatigue, heavy legs, and restless nights of sleep. I struggled on the morning run, and in the evening, despite leaving my watch in my bag, I threw in the towel after 5 miles. No matter how slow, it was doing more harm than good.
Friday: 6 miles – 43:01, 7:10 pace. With my hopes of 90-100 miles pretty much down the tubes, I went into pure recovery mode: Just one easy run with a set of strides. The previous four days don’t bode well for tomorrow, but I hope today will restore some life to my legs.
Saturday: 12 miles – with DeKalb 10k – 34:41, 5:35 pace, 14th place. The week continues to get worse. Months ago I circled this race as a potential PR attempt (32:34) and a few recent tempo runs confirmed the possibility. As you can see, I wasn’t even close. You know those runs where you struggle to keep moving? The type where you hope to never feel that way when it counts? Yeah, that’s how I felt this morning.
I drove out to DeKalb with Matt Flaherty (i.e. the new fastest lawyer in Chicago) and after a normal warm-up, the race went off with a deep field. My goal for the first mile was to not get caught up in the whirlwind and to run 5:20. I crossed the mat in 5:19. That concludes the good things about the race.
From there it was a downward spiral of atrocious running. The smooth stride, quick turnover and light-on-my-feet feeling I had on last Monday’s tempo was absolutely absent. I felt like I’ve been running 20 miles per week. I couldn’t find any rhythm at all and struggled to keep the pace in the 5:30’s. Honestly, if I hadn’t driven 60 miles to this race, I would have stepped off the course after 3 miles. I felt that bad. I can remember only one other race that turned out so poorly, and that was the March Madness Half-Marathon in 2007. I finished in 34:41, my slowest 10k in over 4 years. Fucking awesome.
On the way to the race, Matt and I were talking about different elite runners. Ryan Hall came up. Ironically, Matt commented that he admires how Hall can run a 1:03:xx tune-up half marathon, not let it affect his confidence in any way, then run a 2:06:xx full marathon not long thereafter. There is something to be said about trusting the process of beating the hell out of your body for months, then tapering and peaking. I know that. It doesn’t make it easy to swallow a performance such as today, especially when my workouts the last month have indicated otherwise, but I can’t put too much in it. Bad races happen. Move on.
Sunday: 14 miles – 1:34:53, 6:47 pace. Since the week has turned out so poorly, I decided to keep my long run to a minimum and to start fresh next week. I didn’t intend to only run 81 miles this week, but perhaps it will be for the better. It puts me in a good position for the last four week of training, which will consist of two more high and hard weeks, a step-back for the Philly Half, and one last normal week of training before taper. I can’t wait for Monday to put this one behind me.
Week: 81
YTD: 2,902
Re: Closer to the Edge
Bummer about last week - I've had weeks like that where I have no explanation at all for but then bounce back soon after. I always wonder where that burnout line is too - feel like I straddle it sometimes. You've been running so well it doesn't seem unreasonable to have one "off" week sneak in there somewhere. Interesting observation about Ryan H. - confidence is a tough thing... Hope these next two weeks go well.
John Kilpatrick- Explaining To Spouse
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Re: Closer to the Edge
Well, after putting in over 1,000 miles in the last 10 weeks with 2 tempos a week and several races mixed in, some accumulated fatigue probably isn't a big surprise. Hopefully the legs bounce back a bit this week and you're good to go for another big number this week.
Also, I'm not surprised much by it because that 6 x 1 mile workout completely torched both of us. My legs haven't felt remotely fresh since I did it.
Also, I'm not surprised much by it because that 6 x 1 mile workout completely torched both of us. My legs haven't felt remotely fresh since I did it.
mul21- Explaining To Spouse
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