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Silly Marathoner

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Post  mountandog Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:21 pm

Schuey wrote:Personally I don't care! The way I see it he kicked everyone's ass and then was honest about the fact that that he used someone else bid. Bonus the person finished 2nd finds out that he actually wins the race. No one is hurt, no one cheated! Now if the guy didn't come clean and was exposed later well then different deal! So again I can't believe this was such a big deal!

I guess that is one thing I don't get about a lot of runners, always caring and worrying about what others do. Even if I was good enough to win a race I would feel the say way. I guess my outlook on running and racing is more about myself and putting out my best effort. Sure placing high mean something but at the end the day I know what I did and accomplished so I guess I really don't need some award, finishing place or cash to validate what I really know and that is the effort I gave.

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Post  Mike MacLellan Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:03 pm

Schuey wrote:Personally I don't care! The way I see it he kicked everyone's ass and then was honest about the fact that that he used someone else bid. Bonus the person finished 2nd finds out that he actually wins the race. No one is hurt, no one cheated! Now if the guy didn't come clean and was exposed later well then different deal! So again I can't believe this was such a big deal!

I guess that is one thing I don't get about a lot of runners, always caring and worrying about what others do. Even if I was good enough to win a race I would feel the say way. I guess my outlook on running and racing is more about myself and putting out my best effort. Sure placing high mean something but at the end the day I know what I did and accomplished so I guess I really don't need some award, finishing place or cash to validate what I really know and that is the effort I gave.

"If I was good enough to win a race"...? C'mon, Schuey. You could place first in a number of races.

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Post  Mark B Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:21 pm

Mike MacLellan wrote:
Schuey wrote:Personally I don't care! The way I see it he kicked everyone's ass and then was honest about the fact that that he used someone else bid. Bonus the person finished 2nd finds out that he actually wins the race. No one is hurt, no one cheated! Now if the guy didn't come clean and was exposed later well then different deal! So again I can't believe this was such a big deal!

I guess that is one thing I don't get about a lot of runners, always caring and worrying about what others do. Even if I was good enough to win a race I would feel the say way. I guess my outlook on running and racing is more about myself and putting out my best effort. Sure placing high mean something but at the end the day I know what I did and accomplished so I guess I really don't need some award, finishing place or cash to validate what I really know and that is the effort I gave.

"If I was good enough to win a race"...? C'mon, Schuey. You could place first in a number of races.


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Post  Martin VW Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:09 am

Chris M wrote: In Chicago 2010, I had a A Corral number and MVW had a B Corral number. But he talked his way into the A Corral and we started together. What if he won his AG from there? Should he be DQed since he started further up than his official bib should have allowed? Yes, there's a chip time but the other B Corral runners had runner traffic to deal with that he didn't. DQ him? Again, I would say no way but I get the sense that I'm much more tolerant of bending or even breaking these rules that I don't view as central to the event (like running using a bib that's paid for but under someone else's name).

For the record, I was unable to talk my way into Corral A and I started with my correct corral. Since it was my BQ for 2012, I don't want anyone to think I didn't earn my spot. And it didn't impact my time, as I was able to run unencumbered from the front of Corral B. Fortunately I was on the opposite side of the guy wearing the Eiffel Tower. Chris and I didn't run that race together, he's too fast for me. Of course, I finished that race, and without a side trip to a serial killer's warehouse condo.

I can draw upon two real experiences. One was in my first marathon, when I BQ'd (despite running with a time goal, training on 3 days a week and running in new shoes, all of which I understand now I shouldn't have done - do I have to give the BQ back? Laughing ). My wife and son were 50 yards from the finish and I had my Old Man BQ by 5 minutes. While I wanted to have my son, then 7, run to the finish with me, I didn't because I knew there was a possibility - no matter how remote - that they could DQ me.

And last September I won a race - a local 10K with just 120 people in it, and it turned out no one fast showed up that day. At about the 3 mile mark, and to my utter astonishment, I had a sizeable enough lead - and my own police escort - and I started to think it was possible that I could win. The road wasn't closed, so when the police car didn't cut the tangent on a corner, neither did I, because I knew there was a possibility - no matter how remote - that they could DQ me.

I'm drawing upon these two situations for a couple reasons.

One is, to relive my winning a race.

No, just kidding. One is, these situations mattered to me. As a competitor, I knew the rules, and in both cases I made very conscious decisions to follow them to the letter. To think this guy didn't know - or was too dumb to know - is probably conjecture.

The other is, none of us knows what this guy was thinking. Let's face it, this guy is fast enough that he could show up and win 8 out of 10 marathons. Winning the race may not have mattered all that much. Even the prize - if it was a trip to NYC - may not have mattered. Maybe he, like me, has zero desire to run NYC. If it mattered, he would have played the odds and paid the coin to win a trip, no?

I know guys that have done the "circuit" - entering races every weekend to win prize money. When they do that, if enough fast people show up that you're out of the money, you drop out of the race and save it for another day. Us? We finish races an hour off our PRs that put us in med tents (why, I'm not sure). Why they run, and why WE run are very different. We're recreational runners, not professionals. It's a "different" sport. We can't begin to understand this guy's motivation for doing what he did. So, IMO, let's not call him out for it.

And, at the end of the day, like Schuey said, who was harmed? The race got a LOT of free pub for somthing other than its "interesting" name and finisher medals. The "first finisher" did, too. And the guy that ran the second fastest race that day got a free trip for a race that he didn't really "win" - not at a competitor's level. If I were that gy, I would say that I "won" but would feel compelled to volunteer the back story.

If it isn't a BQ (or an OTQ for those of us much faster than me), It really doesn't matter what the "official" records say. You want to DQ me based on video evidence that I wore headphones, accepted a Gatorade from a friend, or got paced by someone without a bib? Go ahead. I know what I did on race day, and if it was noteworthy - like a PR - I'm going to count it regardless of what Athlinks or Cool Running says. If it was part of a USATF Grand Prix series and I did something that truly gave me an advantage, that's a different story.
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Post  Chris Coleman Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:03 am

He was excluded from the race by the rules, so it's absolutely right that he should not be able to claim first place. If the organisers decide not to make entries transferrable, that's their right, and I don't think it's even unreasonable. As a non-competitor, he should not have interfered with the race organisation by breaking the tape. He shouldn't really have run at all, but there is a difference of degree: to my mind, medium offence versus minor offence. At least there was no question of dishonesty.

In the case of infractions such as unauthorised support, the organisers should disqualify in the event of a protest by another competitor, and without need of such protest if a prize-winning place is likely to have been obtained as the result of an infraction, but surely it's quite unnecessary to start disqualifying people where there is no significant effect on the results, no disruption of the race and no protest.
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Post  dot520 Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:32 am

If you have rules and don't abide by them, then what's the point of the rules? Why even collect any data from us at all when we sign up and just have us purchase a numbered bib at the expo and leave it to us to look it up. Numerical order will be the rule of the day on results. No age group awards. We'll still have top 3 placement and first male/female because there will be folks at the finish line to see them come in.

Personally, I just think if the rules are there, then they should be enforced. Get rid of rules regarding running with you own bib and then that's fine. I don't care if there are transfer abilities or not, I just go by whatever that race requires. Fair play and all.



p.s Being in the back of the pack, I'll never get to Boston. Anyone want to run in my Chicago bib and get me a BQ?Twisted Evil
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Post  mountandog Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:19 pm

dot520 wrote:

p.s Being in the back of the pack, I'll never get to Boston. Anyone want to run in my Chicago bib and get me a BQ?Twisted Evil


Sure Twisted Evil


So should Roberto DeVicenzo not made the Master's playoff eons ago because he signed a wrong scorecard even though everyone on TV saw him shoot one shot lower?

Yes the rules were correctly followed, but was this right?
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Post  Chris M Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:12 pm

mountandog wrote:
dot520 wrote:

p.s Being in the back of the pack, I'll never get to Boston. Anyone want to run in my Chicago bib and get me a BQ?Twisted Evil


Sure Twisted Evil


So should Roberto DeVicenzo not made the Master's playoff eons ago because he signed a wrong scorecard even though everyone on TV saw him shoot one shot lower?

Yes the rules were correctly followed, but was this right?

Excellent example and one where I would say the rule is stupid/silly and of course DeVicenzo should be declared the winner - oops, or at least be allowed to enter the playoff for finishing tied for 1st. There are some other notable things like that in golf where the wind moves the ball after the player addresses it and that's a penalty and even worse now people will watch on TV and call up the PGA and get players DQed after the tournament when the "infraction" truly did nothing to alter the player's score or the tournament. Golf is the primo example of officials doing their best to ruin the sport with nonsense rules that are mainly justified by the old argument of "well we told everyone in advance that these dumb rules were in place...".

It sounds good to say what's the point of having rules if they don't get enforced but I believe reality is far more grey than that. Use my example of someone handing a runner a Gatorade bottle halfway through a marathon. I've done it a bunch of times with my wife or parents handing me something. Many other faster runners here at 365 have gotten the same kind of outside assistance. Well guess what....that's a rule violation and if we follow the rules, I or they should be DQed from that race. But c'mon do we really think that is a rule worthy of being enforced?

With the situation with the Cowtown Marathon winner, a lot of you were branding him a "bandit" or a cheater when I think reality is a bit more grey. He didn't cut the course. He ran the entire footrace with everyone else and ran the distance faster than all of them. So is running using someone else's bib truly the same as cutting the course? Is it the same as being handed a Gatorade bottle at the halfway point by a friend? The same as listening to an iPod? At some point, enforcement of laws/rules needs to look at what is the behavior we are punishing and the punishment should fit the "crime". DeVicenzo should have been in in the Masters playoff because he did nothing wrong or dishonest and let's face it, he finished FIRST in that tournament by shooting a better score than all others except the other guy who he would have had the playoff with. Others who engage in more nefarious forms of bending/breaking the rules should have the book thrown at them. Not all infractions are created equal and punnishments should not be equal as well.

For what its worth, I think it was the right decision to DQ the Cowtown guy and he agreed completely and remember he was the one who stepped forward immediately after finishing and told them the situation. But there is a wider question of whether it makes sense to treat all "infractions" the same way with course cutting being treated the same as someone getting a bottle of Gatorade handed to them.....both end in a DQ.
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Post  Admin Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:51 am

I'm a 'rules are rules' guy. If you start picking and choosing (subjectively) which rules are 'valid' and which are 'stupid' you've lost the integrity of the sport. Of course, some may prefer to treat foot races as if they aren't *really* a sport. I mean, it's just a bunch of people running, right? Why be all uptight about things like registering for the race?

In golf, improper score cards have ruined more than one golfer's tournament, but I am certain that without exception the PGA tour members would agree that they have to follow the rules. They know the rules and agree to abide by them, just as we do when we sign up for a race. In addition to the integrity of the sport, I feel a sense of personal responsibility. These races are private events hosted by individuals and running clubs. They set the rules, and I agree to abide by them. It is a condition of THEIR race that I do so. To willfully violate rules that I have agreed to follow would diminish my integrity. Have I *EVER* violated a rule? Of course. Do I believe that I have a *RIGHT* to violate rules? Absolutely not.

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Post  dot520 Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:39 pm

My mistake...I thought this thread was about what we thought of the guy who came in before anyone else wearing someone else's bib and were the consequences justified.....NOT....should these rules be banned due to the ludicrous nature of them. Much like Blue laws that had their place and are still in place (in INdiana) but not enforced.

He broke the rules, he can say he came in before everyone else (without getting 1st place), and he can give the prize to the next guy in line. The benefit for him was that he had a chip timed race that he can log into his journal.
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Post  Dave-O Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:18 pm

Schuey wrote:Personally I don't care! The way I see it he kicked everyone's ass and then was honest about the fact that that he used someone else bid. Bonus the person finished 2nd finds out that he actually wins the race. No one is hurt, no one cheated! Now if the guy didn't come clean and was exposed later well then different deal! So again I can't believe this was such a big deal!

I guess that is one thing I don't get about a lot of runners, always caring and worrying about what others do. Even if I was good enough to win a race I would feel the say way. I guess my outlook on running and racing is more about myself and putting out my best effort. Sure placing high mean something but at the end the day I know what I did and accomplished so I guess I really don't need some award, finishing place or cash to validate what I really know and that is the effort I gave.

I get what you're saying Schuey, but in a sport that crowns winners and AG prizes, there has to be a methodology for determining who is eligible for the prize. You say no one was "hurt" by his actions, but take this hypothetical to a different race...

Let's say that even though he didn't register for the race, Galen Rupp showed up the morning of the Olympic Trials wearing someone else's bib. He has a great day and edges out Abdi for 3rd place. Should he get the final spot as America's representative?

I know that's an extreme example, but I think the logic is the same. You have officially be IN the race to WIN the race.
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Post  Mike MacLellan Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:48 pm

I would want the 3 on our Olympic team to be the 3 fastest we have to offer. So yes.
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Post  Admin Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:58 pm

How about this example...

Cub are leading the Yankees in the bottom of the 9th. Albert Pujols steps up to the plate wearing a Yankee uniform and jacks a walkoff HR. Sure, he's not a Yankee, but he's a professional baseball player who had the night off and happened to be at the game. He was wearing a Yankee uniform with the number of a player who was in the lineup. No harm. No foul. Right?

If not, what's the difference?

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Post  Chris M Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:28 pm

This is a good discussion that I'm enjoying a lot and it is getting me to think about some of the issues raised. I can't quite get myself to agree that all "rules are rules" and simply accept the one size fits all nature of a race DQing people for legit violations (like cutting the course or less seriously but still worthy of DQ running/winning a race with someone else's bib) AND for silly ticky tack stuff (wearing an iPod or being handed a Gatorade bottle while running).

Matt's example of Puljos, to me, is subjectively easy to see as a major violation of the integrity of the sport and more than just a simple rules violation. But it did make me wonder whether the Knights ever actually put Hobbs on the 40 man roster and deserved to be in the pennant race at all? I don't agree with the premise that those in charge of these private events should just be allowed to make their random rules and not have them challenged or even ignored when particularly bad.

So let's hear some views on this....BAA didn't allow women to run the Boston Marathon until 1972. Was it their right to deny women? Legally, maybe so. But it was clearly wrong and Bobbi Gibb ran the whole thing without a number in 1966 and Switzer with a bib (but she used only a first initial on her application and broke the rule of the BAA rules prohibiting women from applying) a year later in 1967. I view the women in that race as right and the rules preventing their participation as stupid and not worthy of following. But others might say "rules are rules" and brand both Gibb and Switzer as bandits along the same lines the Cowtown marathon guy. For another fictional example, what about the idiots trying to keep Quenton Cassidy out of the 1980 Olympic Marathon trials? Stupid attempted application of silly ticky tack rules.

My main point is that there is a spectrum of both rules and behavior and although it is more difficult to apply a subjective standard to each situation than simply say all violations get the same treatment, that subjective analysis what the best judges do. Apply an application of the laws (rules) to the specifics of a situation. Guy rides a bus in Northumberland to finish 3rd in the marathon and tries to pass it off until caught? Throw the book at him and RDs should keep him out of races. Guy borrows his friends bib and runs the entire marathon and wins it but then immediately tells the RD that his name is not the one on the bib? Deny him the 1st place prize but invite him back next year. Guy gets handed Gatorade by his friend on the course and listens to an iPod on his way to winning his AG? No harm, no foul. Let that rule "violation" go because it does not threaten the integrity of the sport.
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