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35, 5, and 2

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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  mul21 on Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:50 am

@Mark B wrote:
@mul21 wrote:
@Mark B wrote:
@JohnP wrote:You should be able to run 12:00 given this training and stats.

I concur. And you may even have some gas left in the last few miles to pick it up a bit. You're ready.

(Though really, Jim... my MAF target works out to 71.5% of my MaxHR, so it's not all that far off your long runs standard. And my Hadd target is even closer to 75%)

Oh, I know, it's just fun to harass you for your, um, eccentricities!  Also, your stuff is hard for me to get on board with because my body tends to rev at higher than normal RPMs even at easy paces based on my max HR.  There's no way according to normal running conventions I should have been able to run the marathon time I just did based on my HR at various training paces.

What you clearly have failed to mention is that you're only 3 feet tall, and part hummingbird. Smile

Hey now, I'm at least as tall as Jerry. And if I could fly, I certainly would have BQd by now! I can't protest the physiology being a little freaky though, but you should be on board with that based on your feet!
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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  Mark B on Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:45 pm

@mul21 wrote:
@Mark B wrote:
@mul21 wrote:
@Mark B wrote:
@JohnP wrote:You should be able to run 12:00 given this training and stats.

I concur. And you may even have some gas left in the last few miles to pick it up a bit. You're ready.

(Though really, Jim... my MAF target works out to 71.5% of my MaxHR, so it's not all that far off your long runs standard. And my Hadd target is even closer to 75%)

Oh, I know, it's just fun to harass you for your, um, eccentricities!  Also, your stuff is hard for me to get on board with because my body tends to rev at higher than normal RPMs even at easy paces based on my max HR.  There's no way according to normal running conventions I should have been able to run the marathon time I just did based on my HR at various training paces.

What you clearly have failed to mention is that you're only 3 feet tall, and part hummingbird. Smile

Hey now, I'm at least as tall as Jerry.  And if I could fly, I certainly would have BQd by now!  I can't protest the physiology being a little freaky though, but you should be on board with that based on your feet!

Birds of a feather, you know...

Except to hear critics of my chosen career over the years, I think I'm probably more of a vulture.
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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  Schuey on Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:37 pm

@ounce wrote:
@Mark B wrote:
@mul21 wrote:
@Mark B wrote:
@JohnP wrote:You should be able to run 12:00 given this training and stats.

I concur. And you may even have some gas left in the last few miles to pick it up a bit. You're ready.

(Though really, Jim... my MAF target works out to 71.5% of my MaxHR, so it's not all that far off your long runs standard. And my Hadd target is even closer to 75%)

Oh, I know, it's just fun to harass you for your, um, eccentricities!  Also, your stuff is hard for me to get on board with because my body tends to rev at higher than normal RPMs even at easy paces based on my max HR.  There's no way according to normal running conventions I should have been able to run the marathon time I just did based on my HR at various training paces.

What you clearly have failed to mention is that you're only 3 feet tall, and part hummingbird. Smile
That IS an important distinction.  How could I be so STUPID to believe everything Jim says!!!???  tongue
Your not stupid, just not in the right state of mind these days!  Very Happy
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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  ounce on Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:13 pm

@Schuey wrote:
@ounce wrote:
@Mark B wrote:
@mul21 wrote:
@Mark B wrote:
@JohnP wrote:You should be able to run 12:00 given this training and stats.

I concur. And you may even have some gas left in the last few miles to pick it up a bit. You're ready.

(Though really, Jim... my MAF target works out to 71.5% of my MaxHR, so it's not all that far off your long runs standard. And my Hadd target is even closer to 75%)

Oh, I know, it's just fun to harass you for your, um, eccentricities!  Also, your stuff is hard for me to get on board with because my body tends to rev at higher than normal RPMs even at easy paces based on my max HR.  There's no way according to normal running conventions I should have been able to run the marathon time I just did based on my HR at various training paces.

What you clearly have failed to mention is that you're only 3 feet tall, and part hummingbird. Smile
That IS an important distinction.  How could I be so STUPID to believe everything Jim says!!!???  tongue
Your not stupid, just not in the right state of mind these days!  Very Happy

You must've been talking to my ex.
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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  ounce on Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:04 am

First look at weather for the marathon that I got from the KHOU weather forum message board.  Michael Mitchell is a moderator on those boards.  Of course it can change, but hopefully it quickens so it's cooler.  Cold air is building up again in Alaska, as I type this.  Subject to change.

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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  ounce on Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:33 pm

BK level dropped a smidgen to 0.3, from yesterday's 0.4.  Not concerned.  I have a batch of brownies to make for my best friend's daughter for her birfday on Sunday, so I may make those tonight or tomorrow night, in order to minimize the effect of quality control over the weekend.

Regarding the weather, I found the website for the 10 day GFS model, which is the European weather forecasting model.  Here's the link, if you're interested or geeky, http://www.weatherstreet.com/states/gfsx-sfc-temperature-and-wind-forecast.htm

I haven't quite figured out the temperature bar, but comparing today's temp's color versus 10 days out and there isn't much change in temps between today and marathon day.

Mark, you may want to check out the "Surface Press and Precip" map, as it looks like there's a big storm brewing for y'all next weekend, with some real tight isobars.

Michele gets some rain this weekend and we don't.
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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:32 pm

Yes, I will be getting rain and 40s for temps.  Not sure if running through slush is better than over ice and snow though Wink
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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  Mark B on Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:35 pm

@ounce wrote:BK level dropped a smidgen to 0.3, from yesterday's 0.4.  Not concerned.  I have a batch of brownies to make for my best friend's daughter for her birfday on Sunday, so I may make those tonight or tomorrow night, in order to minimize the effect of quality control over the weekend.

Regarding the weather, I found the website for the 10 day GFS model, which is the European weather forecasting model.  Here's the link, if you're interested or geeky, http://www.weatherstreet.com/states/gfsx-sfc-temperature-and-wind-forecast.htm

I haven't quite figured out the temperature bar, but comparing today's temp's color versus 10 days out and there isn't much change in temps between today and marathon day.

Mark, you may want to check out the "Surface Press and Precip" map, as it looks like there's a big storm brewing for y'all next weekend, with some real tight isobars.

Michele gets some rain this weekend and we don't.

Nifty tool! You can see we're going to get hit pretty hard tomorrow and Saturday, too. The next storm a week out from then looks good. We need the moisture.
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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  ounce on Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:09 pm

@Mark B wrote:
@ounce wrote:BK level dropped a smidgen to 0.3, from yesterday's 0.4.  Not concerned.  I have a batch of brownies to make for my best friend's daughter for her birfday on Sunday, so I may make those tonight or tomorrow night, in order to minimize the effect of quality control over the weekend.

Regarding the weather, I found the website for the 10 day GFS model, which is the European weather forecasting model.  Here's the link, if you're interested or geeky, http://www.weatherstreet.com/states/gfsx-sfc-temperature-and-wind-forecast.htm

I haven't quite figured out the temperature bar, but comparing today's temp's color versus 10 days out and there isn't much change in temps between today and marathon day.

Mark, you may want to check out the "Surface Press and Precip" map, as it looks like there's a big storm brewing for y'all next weekend, with some real tight isobars.

Michele gets some rain this weekend and we don't.

Nifty tool! You can see we're going to get hit pretty hard tomorrow and Saturday, too. The next storm a week out from then looks good. We need the moisture.

I like how you can run the mouse arrow over the numbers, as if it was an animation, and backwards, too.  But your Low pressure center in what appears to me to be the Bering Strait just about never moves after the 5th day.  Just sits there churning away.
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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  Mark B on Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:25 am

@ounce wrote:
@Mark B wrote:
@ounce wrote:BK level dropped a smidgen to 0.3, from yesterday's 0.4.  Not concerned.  I have a batch of brownies to make for my best friend's daughter for her birfday on Sunday, so I may make those tonight or tomorrow night, in order to minimize the effect of quality control over the weekend.

Regarding the weather, I found the website for the 10 day GFS model, which is the European weather forecasting model.  Here's the link, if you're interested or geeky, http://www.weatherstreet.com/states/gfsx-sfc-temperature-and-wind-forecast.htm

I haven't quite figured out the temperature bar, but comparing today's temp's color versus 10 days out and there isn't much change in temps between today and marathon day.

Mark, you may want to check out the "Surface Press and Precip" map, as it looks like there's a big storm brewing for y'all next weekend, with some real tight isobars.

Michele gets some rain this weekend and we don't.

Nifty tool! You can see we're going to get hit pretty hard tomorrow and Saturday, too. The next storm a week out from then looks good. We need the moisture.

I like how you can run the mouse arrow over the numbers, as if it was an animation, and backwards, too.  But your Low pressure center in what appears to me to be the Bering Strait just about never moves after the 5th day.  Just sits there churning away.

Yup. I can see why, too. There's a huge area of high pressure over the West that's holding it in place. You'll notice that the rain spun up by that deep Aleutian low pressure system finally starts to push in as the high pressure begins to break apart and drift east on Days 9 and 10.
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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  ounce on Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:13 am

Ah, weather.  We'll always have thee.

BK level this morning heaved up to 1.1 from yesterday's 0.3.  You see what happens when I'm a good boy and watch specifically what I eat?  It'll be an interesting challenge, next week when Reina arrives, as she and I don't eat alike.  Come to think of it, I don't know anyone that does.  I might have to have an IV drip of heavy whipping cream.  I'm sure a lot of restaurants have heavy whipping cream around.  It might be better to have a small igloo with a couple of pints of the stuff on ice.

This morning was a 9 mile run, which is the basic and very familiar course of leaving my apt, then running about 3 miles to Memorial Park (part of the marathon course, by the way), then do the 3 mile crushed granite loop, then back.

The temps have rocketed back to 10 degrees or so above normal at 57 degrees with 100% humidity.  Down here, cool trumps humidity.  It was cool, but a short sleeved shirt and shorts plus my orange Kinvaras.  The preferred racing shoe of the bio-mechanically challenged.

8.82 miles, 1:48:23, 12:17 avg pace, 147 avg HR, 161 HR max during mile 3, 1st half pace 12:23 and 2nd half pace of 12:11


  1. 12:22, 145 bpm
  2. 12:07, 147 bpm (Paced by "Handle with Care" by The Traveling Wilburys)
  3. 12:21, 146 bpm
  4. 12:31, 148 bpm
  5. 12:27, 145 bpm
  6. 12:16, 145 bpm
  7. 12:26, 146 bpm
  8. 12:00, 149 bpm
  9. 11:57 pace, 149 bpm


The Traveling Wilburys were a group comprised of Roy Orbison, Tom Petty, George Harrison, Bob Dylan, and Jeff Lynne in early 1988.  Orbison died on December 6 of that year and George Harrison died in 2001.  They made two albums, with the second one released in 1990.

I let the legs pace themselves up to the last couple of miles and mile 2 for the purpose of seeing what pace "Handle with Care" creates.  My quads had a general odd feeling during mile 4, but abated during mile 5.  Nothing sharply localized and it was bi-lateral plus the same feeling on both quads.  There was a transient lateral to the left shin pain like a shin splint at mile 1 to mile 4, but it abated, too.

It seemed like I was huffing and puffing more than I should, but I got in a better groove around mile 5.  That concerns me some, in advance of the marathon, but I hope to flush that thought on the 19th and concentrate on the job at hand.

I started a spreadsheet on mile splits with a cumulative time.  It brought back to my memory the "Garmin Tax" or how most people run a course long and how it adds distance plus time.  Last year, I figured a 5 second 'tax' or reduction in pace would ultimately get you the time and pace that will be reported.  For example, I want to average a 12 minute pace or 5:15.  But since I will probably run the course long by about a quarter mile (26.47 miles), I'll need to be running and showing on my 305 an 11:55 average pace, so when I cross the finish line, I'll have a 12 minute pace for 26.2 miles.

I'll break that to Reina over dinner on Thursday night.  She's in really good endurance shape, as she's training for the AR50 in April, but she's concerned about doing the 12 minute pace.  We may be doing tag team pacing.  Plus, her topographical area is so not flat.

At this point, I think the weather on race day will be cloudy and 49 with a high of 61.  I love cloudy and there's only a 12 degree increase all day.  Winds will be out of the south, which won't be an issue in the first 8 miles because we'll have fresh legs and for the final 6 miles, it'll be a cross wind or some headwind.
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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  Mark B on Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:19 pm

Well, the race day weather doesn't sound perfect, but it's a lot better than what could happen. So it's good.Smile

Alternative to your "Garmin Tax" plan: Start out at the 12-mi pace and pick it up as your body allows in the second half. I have a hunch you'll have more fuel in the tank than you expect, and those last miles are going to be fun.

(BTW, I bookmarked that weather map site. It's so cool! Thanks.)
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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  ounce on Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:11 pm

@Mark B wrote:Well, the race day weather doesn't sound perfect, but it's a lot better than what could happen. So it's good.Smile

Alternative to your "Garmin Tax" plan: Start out at the 12-mi pace and pick it up as your body allows in the second half. I have a hunch you'll have more fuel in the tank than you expect, and those last miles are going to be fun.

(BTW, I bookmarked that weather map site. It's so cool! Thanks.)

Yeah, but no rain!  My experience with those charts above from the past 2 or 3 years is the precipitation is within 10% probability of being accurate, i.e. if they think 30%, it could be 20% or 40%, but not 70%.  The temps fluctuate like it shows between those two days, but the RANGE of temps is within 5 degrees, so I'm not expecting anything lower than 35 at the start, nor anything greater than 61, +/- 5 degrees.  No 70 degree temps and no 20 degree temps.

I was thinking maybe mile 1-12:15, mile 2-12:05, mile 3 to 21-12 or 11:55, then pick it up some.  Michele was thinking 12:30, then 12:20, until I get to 12 at mile 6.

I'll have to map out your idea and see how it looks...besides the obvious negative split.  Thanks.  Like the avatar?
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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  Mark B on Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:18 pm

Totally awesome avatar. And accurate, too!  Very Happy 
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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  ounce on Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:42 pm

@Mark B wrote:Totally awesome avatar. And accurate, too!  Very Happy 
Except he has hair.  And red, to boot.

BK level dropped to 0.2 this morning after sampling some brownies I made last night, but changed one of the key ingredients.  Wasn't pretty and is presently resting in the trash.  Re-made them as per the recipe, this morning.  So, I expect another small or maybe Lo reading in the morning.
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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  ounce on Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:02 pm

I achieved my "LO" reading for this morning.  I should go to the grocery store and purchase a couple of quarts of heavy whipping cream and a whole lot of squash and zucchini for the week.  No blood ketone level will be too low this week.
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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  ounce on Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:44 pm

From the National Weather Service, Houston/Galveston office's Forecast Discussion at 3:50 a.m., today.
LOTS OF RUNNERS LOOKING AHEAD TO NEXT WEEKEND. PRELIMINARY LOOK AT
SUNDAY MORNING 1/19: MCLDY SKIES WITH SOME PATCHY FOG/DRIZZLE
AROUND. TEMPS STARTING OUT IN THE 40S WARMING INTO THE 60S BY
NOON.

Love the mostly cloudy skies, but I suspect a south wind that will warm up the temps from even 48 to 61 in 5 hours.
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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  Mark B on Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:35 pm

It still looks pretty promising, Ounce. That cool start -- and especially the cloud cover -- suggests that there are some PRs to be had.
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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  ounce on Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:53 pm

@Mark B wrote:It still looks pretty promising, Ounce. That cool start -- and especially the cloud cover -- suggests that there are some PRs to be had.
Yup, for me, the cloud cover is the best thing.
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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  ounce on Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:53 am

week 22 of 22
My blood ketone level rebounded to 0.9, this morning, from yesterday's "Lo" and that's great.  Great way to start the week before Sunday's Chevron Houston Marathon.

This morning, I did a 5 mile run.  It was 64 degrees with a dewpoint of the same.  An upper level low traversed the area bringing a lot of overnight rain, none of which I heard.  This was the first run since Friday's 9.  I don't have but two more runs, this week, including a short 2 mile loosener with Reina on Friday morning.  She arrives late Thursday afternoon.

I wore the red 'n black Kinvaras, with the goal of not screwing up my feet.  The red 'n blacks would be a good alternate for the marathon, but the orange Kinvaras have the nod. 

I let the legs set the pace, however I had 3 songs that were played on a loop, not as rhythm pace songs, but as motivational similar to "Freebird."  The legs were extremely motivated, this morning.

5.01 miles, 53:42, 10:42 pace, 157 avg bpm, 175 max bpm during the last mile, 1st half pace 11:02, 2nd half pace 10:22


  1. 11:26, 144 bpm
  2. 10:47, 156 bpm
  3. 10:31, 159 bpm
  4. 10:35, 162 bpm
  5. 10:13, 167 bpm


Would you look at those times?  My wheels were cooking.  No pain.  At the start, I was going.  So, I put myself in a mindset of the last 5 miles of the marathon, because the temps were in the neighborhood of what it could be on Sunday afternoon.

The three songs on the loop were "One Vision", "Tie Your Mother Down" and "Under Pressure" from the Queen:  Live from Wembley Stadium in 1986.  Then, mile 5 brought a change to a reliable song, "Freebird" and had the best mile split.

How's THAT for "lower the miles, but not the intensity."  Wednesday's run won't be that intense.

And if y'all have any tips for the Taper Madness thread, I'm running out of ideas.  Anything that I can spin wildly out of control.  The above 5 mile run will be part of today's topic.

Thanks for your time and input.
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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:19 am

Excellent run, Doug and as it should be the week before your race.
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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  Mark B on Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:11 am

Wow! Way to go, Ounce! Can definitely see the benefit of this training cycle in that last run. Big thumbs up.

I shudder to think what sort of nuttiness you're going to add to the TM thread this week...
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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  ounce on Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:31 pm

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Excellent run, Doug and as it should be the week before your race.
Hmmm.  Wouldn't have believed that, if I had asked prior to the run.  And thanks, 1L.
@Mark B wrote:Wow! Way to go, Ounce! Can definitely see the benefit of this training cycle in that last run. Big thumbs up.

I shudder to think what sort of nuttiness you're going to add to the TM thread this week...

Thanks, Mark.  This run reminds me of that fast tempo run I did in the summer, chasing that girl.

Well, like I've done, if you provide me with an opening, I'll try to shoot through it like a Tasmanian Devil.



Here's the latest GFS weather model showing temps, dewpoints and rain chances.  The weather guy on the KHOU boards even drew a pretty red box for me.  Still looking like 48-61 degree temperature spread.  Some of the TV stations are predicting 50-70 or 48-66 for the day and fog.
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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  mul21 on Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:45 pm

Michele's right, that's actually a really good indicator of your fitness and not far off a workout I've done race week of 8 miles with 4 @ MP.  Probably a tad fast, but no harm done since you've got nearly a full week of recovery.  I especially like where you HR was.  A 10:13 mile and you didn't even crack 85% of max?  Fantastic!

I would definitely stick with the plan of a 5:15 marathon and if you're feeling good the last 10-15K, there's no reason you can't pick up the pace and end up under 5:10.  If this wasn't such a huge PR attempt, I'd be tempted, based on those numbers, to advise you to shoot for something even faster, but I think a ~30 minute PR is a big enough challenge as is.
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Re: 35, 5, and 2

Post  Mark B on Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:31 pm

@mul21 wrote:Michele's right, that's actually a really good indicator of your fitness and not far off a workout I've done race week of 8 miles with 4 @ MP.  Probably a tad fast, but no harm done since you've got nearly a full week of recovery.  I especially like where you HR was.  A 10:13 mile and you didn't even crack 85% of max?  Fantastic!

I would definitely stick with the plan of a 5:15 marathon and if you're feeling good the last 10-15K, there's no reason you can't pick up the pace and end up under 5:10.  If this wasn't such a huge PR attempt, I'd be tempted, based on those numbers, to advise you to shoot for something even faster, but I think a ~30 minute PR is a big enough challenge as is.

All kidding aside from the TM thread, I couldn't agree with Jim and Michele more. You *are* going to keep getting faster, but the best way to accomplish it is one step at a time. Better to make steady progress at this point.
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